Are Catholics sure they are going to heaven?

[Alexius]

Dear CA,

In my ongoing ‘fence sitting’ inquiry into Catholicism, I have been reading many pro-Catholic works, and a few anti-Catholic works. (but mostly pro, and most who know me here believe I am earnestly seeking the truth)

Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

Protestants use this any many other passages from the New Testament to bank on their salvation. (although almost all Protestants acknowledge that God produces a change in people to make them do good works so a Christian who says they are saved but then sins en masse is probably not a Christian at all and has a false faith)

Now, as I understand the Catholic position, and please correct me if I’m wrong, it involves Merit.

So here’s my problem.

I read from an anti-Catholic site that: “Rome believes in salvation by works. Ergo, no Roman Catholic can be sure of his salvation”

Now I don’t know if this is true or not.

This “Merit” is it merely something that makes Purgatory go quicker, or is it actually needed to avoid Hell?

To rephrase this, let’s say I choose to become a Catholic, go through RCIA, be a good Catholic for a year, and then decide never to step foot in a Catholic church again and just stay home for the rest of my life.

Do I go to heaven (via a long stint in purgatory) or Hell because of my Mortal Sins?

Thanks.

Love,
Rev

Okay, so indeed it is by grace, but we are not told that this happens instantly. It is conditional and continual*. *If we abide in Him, and He in us. * It is a gift of God, for we do not deserve it. Even with the rejection of original sin, we are still creatures who do not have any reason to go to Heaven. God loves His creatures, though, and offers us salvation. A means by which we can join Him. We don’t have to join Him though, and indeed there are many who haven’t/won’t. Mortal sin is that sin which kills the mutual love shared with God…I may add more later.

*Continual if we abide in Him…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[porthos11]

Hi Gamera,

I don’t mean to cause disrespect with the following, but I find analogies and metaphor the best way to understand a concept:

So if Heaven were a gentleman’s club; Jesus paid the cover charge for us to get in, but we can still be kicked out if we don’t buy a drink every hour?

Love,
Rev

Not really. It’s more like Jesus paid the cover charge so we can get it, but we can still trash the place and say that it sucks, and we don’t want to be there and you leave.

 

[Gamera]

Hi Gamera,

I don’t mean to cause disrespect with the following, but I find analogies and metaphor the best way to understand a concept:

So if Heaven were a gentleman’s club; Jesus paid the cover charge for us to get in, but we can still be kicked out if we don’t buy a drink every hour?

Love,
Rev

More like Jesus paid a million-dollar cover charge that I could never afford. Once I’m inside, I don’t need to buy a drink every hour, but if I commit bad acts, the bouncers will throw me out.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

We also know from Scripture that there were many who had done just that–confessed that Jesus was Lord, believed that God raised Him. . .and yet, well, let’s just consider Ananias and Saphira. Part of the group of believers. Nothing at all to say that they hadn’t confessed and believed. . .yet they were still capable of sin. . .they did sin. . .they died in that sin. Were they saved? It doesn’t look good based on Scripture, and other remarks about “narrow gates” etc.

We all have the free will to reject God’s grace even if we believe, confess, etc. --otherwise, once we had ‘confessed’ we would truly be incapable of sin and thus not free. (A good reason for questioning OSAS).

What we have with our confession and belief is the ‘first step’; and if we remain open to God (our choice) it will through His grace lead to further grace. But if we reject it through sin, we must once again ‘confess’ (that’s where confession comes in), and believe again. So it isn’t ‘once for all’ --but it is certainly necessary to keep trying if we fail. We need to take that step to start–or to continue–in grace (whether it’s done for us as infants in Baptism, by our own words in confirmation, or continued throughout life in confession).

 

[jmcrae]

Not really. It’s more like Jesus paid the cover charge so we can get it, but we can still trash the place and say that it sucks, and we don’t want to be there and you leave.

But if you apologize sincerely to the Management every time you break something or make a mess, and you sincerely intend to stop making messes and breaking things, they let you stay. Which I think is pretty cool.:bounce:

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Hi Prayer_Warrior,

I have trouble reconciling this with what Paul says in Romans 10:9-11:

Love,
Rev

Remember, we cannot exclude one part of scripture in our understanding of another part of scripture. So, we can’t ignore 1 Jn 5:16 in our understanding of Rom 10:9-11. The way to reconcile is to not only believe both verses are true, but also take them in context of each other. Here is a discussion that might further explain the Catholic view of salvation in light of Rom 10:9-11. Hope this helps.

 

[porthos11]

Hi Prayer_Warrior,

I have trouble reconciling this with what Paul says in Romans 10:9-11:

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Love,
Rev

And indeed, we do beleve this, for this is Scripture, and Catholics do believe that we are justified by faith. But remember that Paul also writes the following:

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off (Rom 11:22).

Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified (1 Cor 9:25-27).

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries (Heb 10:26-27).

We see here that there is indeed the prospect of losing salvation even after the initial justification. Paul is talking about being cut off from the life-giving branch after justification (the audience of Romans were Christians). St. Paul himself expresses concern of his own disqualification (note the context in which he refers to the “imperishable wreath”; the only imperishable reward is heaven). And of course, the passage from Hebrews tells of the consequence of deliberate sin afer evangelization.

So yes, the passages you quoted are well and true, but the notion that we cannot in the future reject our salvation for whatever insane reason is not supported in the Bible.

 

[porthos11]

But if you apologize sincerely to the Management every time you break something or make a mess, and you sincerely intend to stop making messes and breaking things, they let you stay. Which I think is pretty cool.:bounce:

Yes, after making reparation. I think it’s cool too.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi Gamera,

I don’t mean to cause disrespect with the following, but I find analogies and metaphor the best way to understand a concept:

So if Heaven were a gentleman’s club; Jesus paid the cover charge for us to get in, but we can still be kicked out if we don’t buy a drink every hour?

Love,
Rev

Ok, concepts aside, this has to be the biggest theological oxymoron I have ever seen.

Let’s see, Heaven is a nudie bar… Well I gues you could have gone much farther.

Man, where did that lightning storm suddenly come from???

 

[jmcrae]

Ok, concepts aside, this has to be the biggest theological oxymoron I have ever seen.

Let’s see, Heaven is a nudie bar… Well I gues you could have gone much farther.

Not all gentlemen’s clubs are nudie bars. I was actually picturing something like the Petroleum Club, the Press Club, or the Ranchman’s Club, which are just places for men who share the same occupation to hang out and socialize with each other (the theory being that women don’t need clubs to get together and talk - they do that anyway. Gentlemen’s clubs are probably totally sexist in concept, since they assume that male professionals need a place to get together and talk, and female professionals don’t - but it has nothing to do with the entertainment.)

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Assurance of salvation is indeed present among Catholics, but thusly:

1. We believe that we are saved by grace.
2. However, we also believe that we can lose our state of grace through mortal sin (St. Paul warns Christians about falling away).
3. The state of grace is restored through Confession, or extra-ordinarily through an act of perfect contrition with the intention of going to Confession as soon as possible.
4. At any one moment, a Catholic knows whether he is in a state of grace or not. This means a Catholic knows that if he is in a state of grace now and he dies now, he goes to heaven (with a possible stop in purgatory).
5. What a Catholic doesn’t know is whether he will be in a state of grace at the moment of his death (perhaps some time in the future, he may wilfully harden his heart and reject God through mortal sin, and die unrepentant). This is something we cannot know for sure, since it is in the future, yet we remain hopeful and prayerful that we will persevere in grace.

This was a fairly mechanical formulation, worked out very nicely, and was fine until mass education meant that a semi-literate version had to be pressed on ranks of schoolchildren.

A Catholic may know in an intellectual sense that he has been to Confession recently and is in a state of grace. He still isn’t what Protestants call “saved”. God simply doesn’t, or only very rarely gives us, that kind of assurance.

Similarly, whilst it can do some short-term good to convince someone that he has lost grace and will be damned, in fact people don’t live like that for any length of time. A humble peasant hasn’t the resources to defy the Church and so no great damage is done, a great scholar can be left to his own devices, but to the massed ranks of sons and daughters of secretaries and shopkeepers, being taught in an uninsipiring school by some not too bright nun, it was a sure recipie for rebellion. The shutters of invincible ignorance come down, maybe saving the soul, but at a terrible price to the Church’s witness.

Moreover, Catholics believe strongly that good works are of no value and merit whatsoever when he is not in a state of grace. We reject the notion of salvation by works.

I wouldn’t say we believe that strongly. The fact is that attempts to set up humanitarian, charitable, or similar agencies outside of the Church usually end up being a serious danger to other people. However we wouldn’t want to live a world where only Catholics in good standing even tried to do good.

 

[NotWorthy]

Not all gentlemen’s clubs are nudie bars. I was actually picturing something like the Petroleum Club, the Press Club, or the Ranchman’s Club, which are just places for men who share the same occupation to hang out and socialize with each other (the theory being that women don’t need clubs to get together and talk - they do that anyway. Gentlemen’s clubs are probably totally sexist in concept, since they assume that male professionals need a place to get together and talk, and female professionals don’t - but it has nothing to do with the entertainment.)

Oh…um… er, I knew what you meant all along.

Good thing I didn’t tip my hand further and complain about the price of the watered down drinks and all. Boy, THAT would have been embarassing!!!

 

[Mintaka]

Little-known fact: Victorian women had ladies’ clubs for the same reason men had men’s clubs – to get out the house and go relax somewhere with their friends. The Junior League and the like still have clubhouses in some cities.

 

[ltravis]

Given that this boils down to the question of whether salvation is a one time event and permanent. To that, I guess we could probably ask if there is any place the Bible states that salvation cannot be lost. Also, if we just look at verses, both arguments can be defended. Given that, which one seems to make more sense, the one that asserts that actions don’t have consequences or the one that asserts they do? Anyway, my over simplistic analogy: through His cross, Christ sent us the RSVP to heaven. Now we have the chance to reply to it.

LT

 

[NotWorthy]

Salvation, you can’t earn it, but you can sure blow it!!!

 

[Subrosa]

Are Catholics sure they are going to heaven?

Nope! As a Catholic, you’re never really sure. That’s one of things that really $#%*$ about being Catholic. It’s enough to drive a person Protestant. That way, once you’re saved, you’re in!

NOT!

Subrosa

Sorry. Bad taste, I know. I’ll be good. I promise.

 

[raezale]

God does, but He hasn’t left us in the dark as to His requirements. We have the Ten Commandments, and we have the Sermon on the Mount, the “woes” of St. Luke, along with all of Jesus’ other sayings, which we find in the Gospels.

For the sake of simplifying the process, many priests have undertaken to compile these into a series of questions, divided according to topic. Such a list of questions is referred to as an “Examination of Conscience,” or also called an “Examen.” There are a variety of types of Examen, depending upon one’s state in life (for children, for married persons, etc.) as well as general Examens that are good for everyone.

What a Catholic would do is he would go through all of the questions on the Examen in a prayerful manner, while asking the Holy Spirit to show him his sins.

As he went through the questions, to any that he responds “yes,” that he did that sin, he would then prayerfully ask himself, Did I know at the time that this was wrong?" “Did I do it on purpose?” and “Did I do it with the free consent of my will,?” If he answers “yes” to each of these, then he must confess these sins in the Confessional at his next reasonable opportunity. Otherwise, he can simply pray to God for forgiveness of his sins, and be resolved to avoid committing them in the future.

Sure. I think that Protestants could certainly make good use of the various Examens that are out there - there are actually quite a few of them on the Internet.

Not so much that they don’t have to worry about it, as that there isn’t all that much they can do about them, since they can’t go to Confession.

Yes, I know the Ten Commandments and about making an examination of conscience. What about “Catholics” (you know the type, baptized as a child, maybe even made their first communion and were confirmed, but don’t really attend Mass unless it’s Christmas, Easter, or for a wedding) who don’t?

What about people who aren’t Catholic? Are they able to avoid the guilt of mortal sin because they don’t commit sins with “full knowledge”?

What about the natural law written in every human heart - believers and non-believers alike? (see Pope John Paul’s Evangelium Vitae number 2)

Here’s an example. Many people around the world do not think anything is wrong with abortion. Women have them, doctors perform them, politicians and citizens vote for them. In the eyes of the Church, abortion is a mortal sin. Based upon the Church’s definition of mortal sin, these people who are having, performing, and supporting abortion are not guilty of mortal sin (lack of full knowledge). However, if the sacredness of human life is written on every human heart, then all of these millions of people have been and are cut off from God and will spend eternity in Hell unless, of course, they repent.

Now, I’m not a theologian so I don’t know if my thinking is correct. It seems to me that “mortal sin” only applies to Catholics who live (or try to live) the faith. The natural law must be what applies to everyone to determine whether or not one attains Heaven or suffers in Hell.

 

[estesbob]

If I died today I would go to heaven. Since have a free will and could accordingly commit a mortal sin i cant comment about any time but the present.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, I know the Ten Commandments and about making an examination of conscience. What about “Catholics” (you know the type, baptized as a child, maybe even made their first communion and were confirmed, but don’t really attend Mass unless it’s Christmas, Easter, or for a wedding) who don’t?

It would be wrong to make any kind of a blanket statement, but if they know what they are supposed to do, and just can’t be bothered, then they are in trouble, for sure. But a lot of people either don’t know the teachings, or don’t understand them very well, and believe that they are following the teachings just fine. They also teach their children the wrong interpretation, and so it goes on, generation after generation.

What about people who aren’t Catholic? Are they able to avoid the guilt of mortal sin because they don’t commit sins with “full knowledge”?

You don’t have to be a trained theologian to be able to commit a mortal sin. All that is required for “full knowledge” is the awareness that the action is considered “wrong.”

What about the natural law written in every human heart - believers and non-believers alike? (see Pope John Paul’s Evangelium Vitae number 2)

Here’s an example. Many people around the world do not think anything is wrong with abortion. Women have them, doctors perform them, politicians and citizens vote for them. In the eyes of the Church, abortion is a mortal sin. Based upon the Church’s definition of mortal sin, these people who are having, performing, and supporting abortion are not guilty of mortal sin (lack of full knowledge). However, if the sacredness of human life is written on every human heart, then all of these millions of people have been and are cut off from God and will spend eternity in Hell unless, of course, they repent.

Quite true. If they understand that killing is wrong, and if they understand that the infant in the womb is alive, then they have the amount of knowledge that is required to make it a mortal sin, if they do it deliberately, and of their own free will.

Now, I’m not a theologian so I don’t know if my thinking is correct. It seems to me that “mortal sin” only applies to Catholics who live (or try to live) the faith. The natural law must be what applies to everyone to determine whether or not one attains Heaven or suffers in Hell.

No. Absolutely anyone who has the full use of reason can commit a mortal sin. Those not under the authority of the Catholic Church are not bound by her disciplines (fasting, Mass attendance, etc.), but they are certainly bound by the moral law as found in the Ten Commandments, Sermon on the Mount, etc., which apply to everyone.

 

[WestonGrant]

All I can say is that at this point I expect to spend a good long time in purgatory clearing out a lot o junk.

Maybe by the time I’m older (God willing) I’ll have been changed more and need less cleaning out.