Are catholics their own worst enemy??

[kalt]

What is wrong with going to Mass and that’s that? Why mingle anyway? I mind my own business and go about my own way. Like I said before, we are there for one purpose and one purpose only. We are not there to be entertained.
Don’t get me wrong, everyone says hello to me and I to them, but s far as coffee and such, I skip it as I need to get home to cook my Sunday dinner.
I sometimes attend Mass during the week and I love that. Nice and quiet…

I leave immediately after, too. Coffee an’ has no appeal. But I can understand that our way isn’t everyone’s way, and wishing for a more friendly atmosphere isn’t asking for too much.

We’ve never introduced ourselves to anyone after Mass. Now that I think about it, that is fairly unnatural. If it were any other situation, people would natrually introduce themselves. At work, a party, a meeting, whatever, someone would introduce himself rather than stand around not knowing anyone’s name.

When you think about it, we are weird!

Of course all this introducin’ should go on outside the church either before or after Mass. Once you’re in the church, you need to be mindful of where you are and what’s going on. This is not the time to introduce yourself or to make small talk.

 

[buffalo]

Guyonthestreet, maybe I can offer a view of parish life, well over 50 years ago,
that may be of assistance.

City parishes were taken for granted as the center piece of our lives.
No one went to Mass to hear the short ‘sermon.’ We went to ‘hear Mass.’
Usually, one’s brother was an altar boy, Aunt Clara helped in the Altar Rosary Society to keep the altar linens fresh and bright. Grouchy Uncle Thomas may have been a member of the St. Vincent de Paul Society, which members cared, quietly, for the needs of those who were doing without. Uncle Thomas would get even grouchier if you mentioned his work to him. Then there were the church ushers. With 5 Masses on a Sunday morning, these men needed a shoe horn to fit everyone in the pews.
The choir members worked with might and main each week, getting ready for
Sunday, and worked even harder for Christmas and Easter Masses.

What I am trying to convey, possibly poorly, is that parish life was the culture in which we lived. 50 years ago. If one wished to convert to Catholicism, one met
with the parish priest on a regular schedule, for ‘instruction.’

Much has changed in 50 years. When I attend baptisms and confirmations,
I note how the priest ‘celebrant’] keeps heading back to a ‘presider’s chair’
constantly. [This continues to mystify me, no matter how this darting back and forth
is explained.] http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

I was drawn to Judaism, early in life, because I watched an elderly man, when I was 12, making his way to the synagogue on many days, to help form a minyan. He was charity itself, and most soft spoken. I knew that God was with him.

I close with the sentiments of St. Thos. More, in abbreviated form:

**Pray for me, **
**as I will for thee, **
that we may merrily meet in heaven.

Kindest regards,

reen12

Bingo! Our churches are now drive by churches. In addition the secular community is has offerings that were once the domain of the Church.

We need to get back to the Church as the centerpiece.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Bingo! Our churches are now drive by churches. In addition the secular community is has offerings that were once the domain of the Church.

We need to get back to the Church as the centerpiece.

That was very well said, Buffalo. The Church has let the secular community take away a lot from it. “Drive by” mentality only increases our propensity to be individualists and narcissists, thus feeding original sin. We are the Body of Christ, not the Individuals of Christ. Protestant and Catholic churches and parishes alike are guilty of this sin.

If we are not careful, we will go the way of the European Church. We are already headed in that direction.

O+

 

[buffalo]

That was very well said, Buffalo. The Church has let the secular community take away a lot from it. “Drive by” mentality only increases our propensity to be individualists and narcissists, thus feeding original sin. We are the Body of Christ, not the Individuals of Christ. Protestant and Catholic churches and parishes alike are guilty of this sin.

If we are not careful, we will go the way of the European Church. We are already headed in that direction.

O+

We as parents must recognize this and prefer the Church events. That is what bonds the youngsters to the Catholic Community.

 

[manualman]

Jesus noted that the Church would be like a filed in which the good farmer planted good seed, but his enemy sneaked in and also scattered weed seeds. The weeds and the wheat grow up together.

From this, I would have to conclude that if you are attending a church where there appear to be no weeds, it probably isn’t the true church. Most protestant congregations got started by breaking off from an older protestant congregation in order to ‘reform’ the doctrine or worship style or similar issue. In other words, to try to weed the congregation. It doesn’t work, it only fragments the community.

Catholics are our own worst enemy. But we also have lots of homegrown opportunity for evangelization. I prefer to see it that way.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Catholics are NOT their own worst enemy, but there are some issues “going on” that are / have been creating some problems.

As discussed in another thread, nobody ever explains anything. At one time, maybe 50 years ago, Catholics seemed to have a pretty good understanding of the fundamentals, the structure of the Mass, etc.

But something has happened … I don’t want to call it “Catholic education”, but perhaps the word “apologetics” is the right word.

There has developed a gaping hole in teaching Catholics the basics and bases of the Catholic faith.

WHICH, by the way, is how and why Catholic Answers came about.

One of my friends stated in a bull session that “Catholics learn their faith by osmosis”. That, unfortunately, is true. But, also, as a result, Catholics don’t learn their faith very well or thoroughly or quickly.

 

[manualman]

…
The Roman Catholic church is not the last word on the meaning of sex in a marriage, and it approves of birth control using the rhythm method, which completely contravenes the stated theory of Humanae Vitae that essentially says sex is solely for the purpose of creating life.

…

There’s a lot to unpack here. The first clue that you are about to be deceived is when an educated christian refers to NFP as “Rythm.” The only people who use that word today are those actively seeking to beat on NFP with any stick available. (or perhaps a 60+ year old who has been an island castaway for decades…).

It should be noted that the poster doesn’t believe that the “Roman Catholic church” is the last word on ANY matter of faith and morals (an assertion I infer via his Eastern Orthodox affiliation).

I also have to wonder if this poster has actually read Humane Vitae. It’s readily available online. It quite clearly states that marital sex has a twofold purpose: procreative and unitive. One may make the argument that it primarily stresses the procreative function, but may not rationally argue that HV teaches that sex is “solely for the purpose of creating life.”

The reason the Church forbids contraception (not “birth control”) is that it actively and intentionally severs the link between sex and life. What HV doesn’t clearly explain, but JPII later does more fully is that contraception doesn’t just repudiate the procreative function of married sex, it badly damages the unitive function in the process. One cannot put on a condom and then proceed to tell his wife that she is his all, his soulmate and he will give his all to her. The action is fundamentally at odds with the message. NFP doesn’t do that and anyone who has practiced it understands this very quickly (which is not to say finds it easy!). NFP doesn’t create a physical contradiction to the spiritual meaning of sex like contraception does. It makes use of the naturally infertile time for the unbroken unitive function of sex and requires the couple to abstain during the naturally fertile time if there is a “serious” reason to avoid children at that time. “Serious” is not formally defined in a list, nor limited to health reasons (contrary to the usual orthodox accusations about catholic obsessions with definitions), but described in principle. Read HV yourself, it’s not long or hard.

The final difference is that NFP is self limiting while contraception is self perpetuating. Contraception requires nothing of the user - it’s “free gratification” which should always make one suspicious. NFP requires abstinance (sexual fasting) which shines a spotline on one’s alleged “serious reason.” Many the NFP user (me included) has benefitted from this crucible test by realizing that what seemed so serious at first, wasn’t actually so insurmountable. God seems to honor fasting, we don’t really know why, but surely an EO guy doesn’t need a cerebral explanation for it, yes?

 

[Al_Masetti]

Even given the unfortunate changes in the informal aspect of the church, there are ways of taking advantage of the sense of community.

Attend daily Mass.

Show up for a committee. [Some years ago, we were shocked to learn that our parish had 50 functioning committees that did actual stuff.] Someone once asked at an open meeting, "Who appointed you … " We all yelled out … “SHOW UP”.

Participate in Catholic Answers and Catholic Answers Forums. Get to know the spiritual path taken by folks like Karl Keating … read the books he has written. Just one example. There are a bunch of people at CA who work on the radio project, on the Forums project, on the various public speaking projects, etc. CA and CAF is an amazing and helpful community. Instead of focusing on just one thread, sample all of them.

There are other groups as well … Look up people like Scott Hahn, and Marcus Grodi and Patrick Madrid … just to name a few.

Subscribe to media such as The Wanderer.

Watch EWTN … Listen to Fr. John Corapi and some of the other speakers who regularly appear.

These may or may not be as intimate as the Church was 50 years ago, but the Church has learned how to adapt to the changes in media and technology.

Take advantage of those improvements.

 

[Bill_Pick]

All Protestant denominations considered artificial contraception a sin up until the Anglican Lambeth Conference of 1930. At that conference, the Anglican Communion decided that artificial contraception was no longer a sin and the rest of mainstream Protestantism followed suit.

 

[GodIsGracious]

I too think the OP has a valid point.

I think that Catholics are their own worst enemy not in that they’re not friendly or aren’t out there socializing before or after Mass, but it is because they don’t know their faith as they should. Not because there aren’t any door greeters at the front of the church.

I am guilty as charged in this respect.

Of personal observations (which may or may not be expanded to speak generally) is that people who convert over to Protestant churches initially do so due to belief, but then are welcomed in warmly. As social creatures (me, I’m not that social, personally) people like that. They enjoy it. I think this one sentence that someone I knew who converted from Catholicism to a local evangelical church gave me sums it up pretty well: “They pay attention to me there.”

I really felt for her. Because I do know how it can sometimes seem like Catholics are cliquish or unfriendly or cloistered. This isn’t really the case.

What also helps in taking sheep from the flock is the solid teaching many Catholics lack. When they go in search for truth and they come across a Protestant who is well versed in biblical verses, where as many Catholics just simply aren’t that way, it can have the appearance that the Protestant really knows what they’re talking about. Couple that with activities and a welcoming committee, gosh, who wouldn’t want to be a part of a God loving community who includes you?

So I can certainly see the appeal.

Catholics, from my experience, simply aren’t that way. This view that there is no welcoming committee is, IMO, a very Protestant view of church. I agree completely that our local parish should be the center of our social community extended from our intimate social community of our immediate and extended families (aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.) But I think that sometimes this gets hindered by what occurs at Mass and this is something that people who aren’t Catholic may not get or understand.

Catholics recognize that the Mass is a sacrifice. We have Jesus Christ Right There. The Mass is a culmunation of receiving Christ’s body and blood, soul and divinity. I think for a Catholic, there is the awe of having come in communion with Christ’s body through the Holy Eucharist. I don’t know about anyone else, but for me, it’s not that I’m not being friendly, it’s that I have just received Christ’s body and blood and I’m not about to stand around chat idly with people, especially people I don’t know. (This is actually exacurbated by the fact that I, personally, am very shy and I am NOT outgoing. I’m the one standing by the hors d’oeuvres and punch bowl at a party hoping no one would see me behind my bitty paper cup full of punch!)

However, I can relate to people who are not Catholic, with no understanding of the awesomeness of a Catholic Mass, and view worship as simply a place to gather, and wanting interaction with the community but not receiving it, perceiving Catholics as being very unfriendly. I don’t think they get what has just occurred. This can be especially true of people who do not believe that Communion is the real body and blood of Christ. I don’t know about any other Catholics here, but to me it always seems like the congregation is transformed after having received communion. There’s just something “else” about us so I think that’s why we probably just dart on home or somewhere else. I mean really… we have become part of Christ’s body simply by partaking in communion. You can’t tell me that Catholics aren’t affected by that.

Further, when you’re not Catholic and you don’t understand what is going on at the Mass, it can seem confusing. It can also seem daunting for some when they do have an idea of Catholics the Holy Eucharist. I mean, how do you go up to someone and say, “Hey! Have a nice meal? I’m new!” Also, bear in mind that even some of the most friendly and outgoing people can still feel a bit shy when in a group of people they don’t know, seeing them dart off after having partaken in communion, to just go up to someone and start to introduce yourself. That in and of itself is intimidating and even has me a bit hyperventilated just writing it!

To the OP and other non-Catholic christians: Please don’t take Catholics as being unfriendly. We are not unfriendly. I think that what happens during the Mass transforms Catholics and so they’re in a different … way, so to speak. Give the parish a chance. Pick up a bulletin or go on the parish’s website. Further, look for an usher. They may be busy, but many ushers (who generally are men from what I’ve seen but each parish may be different) are married and could probably introduce you to their wives or brothers or sons, etc. Do this before Mass. Also, after Mass, chill out for a minute as most priests will go to the entrance of the church. They’re very approachable and will most likely know who to contact to become a part of the community.

I guess us Catholics simply just “know” this. Especially cradle Catholics as this is what we grow up with so we take it for granted.

Most Catholics would be more than OVER JOYED and HAPPY to see someone come in and honestly investigate the faith once we know who you are.

ETA:
I also wanted to add that pick up a parish bulletin or check out the parish website if they have one. I bet you there’s a committee or society at that parish that would be the equivalent of the “welcoming committee.”

As a cradle Catholic who has visited many parishes but has not been greeted at the door except for one church, I can certainly understand where the OP is coming from. For me, not being greeted is no big deal. If I am greeted (as I was once at a local small Byzantine church) it felt … weird. I thought I was at a grocery store or something! LOL.

Anyway, we welcome all home. Just know that.

 

[Bill_Pick]

There’s a lot to unpack here. The first clue that you are about to be deceived is when an educated christian refers to NFP as “Rythm.” The only people who use that word today are those actively seeking to beat on NFP with any stick available. (or perhaps a 60+ year old who has been an island castaway for decades…).

It should be noted that the poster doesn’t believe that the “Roman Catholic church” is the last word on ANY matter of faith and morals (an assertion I infer via his Eastern Orthodox affiliation).

I also have to wonder if this poster has actually read Humane Vitae. It’s readily available online. It quite clearly states that marital sex has a twofold purpose: procreative and unitive. One may make the argument that it primarily stresses the procreative function, but may not rationally argue that HV teaches that sex is “solely for the purpose of creating life.”

The reason the Church forbids contraception (not “birth control”) is that it actively and intentionally severs the link between sex and life. What HV doesn’t clearly explain, but JPII later does more fully is that contraception doesn’t just repudiate the procreative function of married sex, it badly damages the unitive function in the process. One cannot put on a condom and then proceed to tell his wife that she is his all, his soulmate and he will give his all to her. The action is fundamentally at odds with the message. NFP doesn’t do that and anyone who has practiced it understands this very quickly (which is not to say finds it easy!). NFP doesn’t create a physical contradiction to the spiritual meaning of sex like contraception does. It makes use of the naturally infertile time for the unbroken unitive function of sex and requires the couple to abstain during the naturally fertile time if there is a “serious” reason to avoid children at that time. “Serious” is not formally defined in a list, nor limited to health reasons (contrary to the usual orthodox accusations about catholic obsessions with definitions), but described in principle. Read HV yourself, it’s not long or hard.

The final difference is that NFP is self limiting while contraception is self perpetuating. Contraception requires nothing of the user - it’s “free gratification” which should always make one suspicious. NFP requires abstinance (sexual fasting) which shines a spotline on one’s alleged “serious reason.” Many the NFP user (me included) has benefitted from this crucible test by realizing that what seemed so serious at first, wasn’t actually so insurmountable. God seems to honor fasting, we don’t really know why, but surely an EO guy doesn’t need a cerebral explanation for it, yes?

All Protestant denominations considered artificial contraception a sin up until the Anglican Lambeth Conference of 1930. At that conference, the Anglican Communion decided that artificial contraception was no longer a sin and the rest of mainstream Protestantism followed suit.

 

[josie_L]

That was very well said, Buffalo. The Church has let the secular community take away a lot from it. “Drive by” mentality only increases our propensity to be individualists and narcissists, thus feeding original sin. We are the Body of Christ, not the Individuals of Christ. Protestant and Catholic churches and parishes alike are guilty of this sin.

If we are not careful, we will go the way of the European Church. We are already headed in that direction.

O+

:yup:

 

[happilycatholic]

I too think the OP has a valid point.

I think that Catholics are their own worst enemy not in that they’re not friendly or aren’t out there socializing before or after Mass, but it is because they don’t know their faith as they should. Not because there aren’t any door greeters at the front of the church.

 

[Jon_Hus]

However, the people put me off. However superficial that may seem, it’s true and it is a real stumbling block for me.

Today at work I had dealings with an Irish catholic family. Their faith was not the issue but it transpired at interview about something else that their son was causing a huge heartache to them by entering a proestant church. And the reason - he has disabilities and the protestant church has young people, an outreach programme, a music group and a drop in centre, a volunteer program and a summer activities program all run by young people. People he can identify with.

Apart from the Mass, their catholic church has nothing to offer him.

Their son describes the catholic congregation as a ‘‘bunch of decrepid old biddies’’.

It got me thinking of some of the people here, and some of the catholic people I’ve met in real life. They seriously put me off.

Now, I know the church is made up of imperfect people and that is no reason to refuse God’s saving grace in his church, but like it or not it is a factor that has an affect on people like me. And there are many like me out here.

The range of contacts I have had here and in real life are reflected in either an arrogant, ignorant, triumphalist superiority complex, or a quiet, unassuming insular individualist exercise of duty.

I’m not remotely bothered by people not talking to me after mass for example, but the fact is I’ve been attending the same church for several years and not one person has ever asked me about myself - the most I ever get is a smile, nod, and then they shuffle away, their duty done for the week.

Guyonthestreet,

I know what you mean. During three years of High School and the year after, I attended the local RCC with my girlfriend a minimum of once a week and on average probably three times/week. Not one time in the 100s of get togethers which (I was told) included the real presence of my Lord and Savior, the eternal creator of all things, did anyone, from the biggest to the smallest express even the slightest amount of interest in me.

My mother-in-law worked as secretary and chef for the priest at her RCC for 30 years. After dear Mother passed, we attended a memorial for her. Her priest, whom she had served for 30 years did not even attend the memorial, rather he delegated the chore to an assistant.

I attended a memorial service for a family member of a co-worker, a young lady who was a pilot in the US Air Force. As such, there was a large amount of uniformed military and an honor guard and media. The priest (who all but admitted that he had never met the subject of the memorial) told us that she would be admitted through the gates of glory because she was a nice person, hard working and suffered a terminal illness at a young age. This as opposed to RCC policy that only the baptized faithful have any hope and all others should be treated as heretics.

My wife’s aunt (and her husband) whom go to mass literally every day and have for all their lives and are involved in all kinds of church activities and wheels for meals type programs are now barely able to take care of themselves. Meanwhile, the loving members of their parish could care less. It is beginning to look like my wife and I are going to have to move them the 250 miles so that we can help.

About 15 years ago I attended a mass with my sister during Christmas. The sermonette, masterfully delivered by the priest was all about Mary’s decision to be the mother of Jesus, no time for the Son of God who though sinless, paid the penalty of my sin on the cross and rose again on the third day and is now seated at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for me.

Which reminds me of my sister’s husband, actually a nice guy but informs me on a regular basis that he would never be anything other than Catholic. This in spite of the fact that I never bring up religion and he hasn’t feasted on the wafer since I have known him, about 20 years. After all, the Catholic Church (building) is beautiful and full of statues and stained glass that are actually quite helpful to those who are illiterate to understand the gospel. Meanwhile, I can only listen to my brother-in-law complain about his widowed mother who re-married a “hustler” (my BIL’s description, not mine) a fine Catholic man who met my BIL’s mother standing in line at the confessional. He now controls all of her financial assetts.

My paternal Grandmother, a staunch life long Catholic, who’s sister was a nun (she served as a nurse in a Catholic hospital before her death) had the pastor of her hospital roomate perform her funeral. This pastor, a Major in the Salvation Army was the only person outside of family who bothered to visit her during the last 6 months of her life. He shared the Gospel of Jesus with my Grandmother and She accepted. This led to me accepting Christ as savior several moths later.

Well here I am, a sinner saved by grace of God the Father through faith in His Son, Jesus. I’m an anathema to those who are baptized by their Bishop and regularly partaking in the body and blood. And the advice I get from the lovely people here is get myself properly instructed in the catechism, as if I cannot read it without the assistance of the helpful people and staff at my local RCC.

Compare and contrast this to practically every Bible church I have ever attended. Smiling faces and an interest in me or any one else who is visiting. It’s night and day and it’s because instead of eating a wafer or having the good fortune of having parents that had the priest sprinkle water on their head at 3 weeks of age, they have “Christ in you.”

But hey, freedom of religion and all.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Guyonthestreet,

I know what you mean. During three years of High School and the year after, I attended the local RCC with my girlfriend a minimum of once a week and on average probably three times/week. Not one time in the 100s of get togethers which (I was told) included the real presence of my Lord and Savior, the eternal creator of all things, did anyone, from the biggest to the smallest express even the slightest amount of interest in me.

When I was in jr. and senior high, there was a boy that was really close friends with my cousins. He had the gall to tell me that HE was a Christian all the while playing ball in the Catholic school yard with my cousins - all of whom are Catholic and invited him to come play. With all the other Catholic kids playing ball with him.

My mother-in-law worked as secretary and chef for the priest at her RCC for 30 years. After dear Mother passed, we attended a memorial for her. Her priest, whom she had served for 30 years did not even attend the memorial, rather he delegated the chore to an assistant.

My grandmother and family were parishioners for decades. When Popel John Paul II came to visit our family parish, we got special consideration for being contributing members of the parish for many many decades. This gave many of us (me and my cousins) a very special once in a lifetime opportunity.

I attended a memorial service for a family member of a co-worker, a young lady who was a pilot in the US Air Force. As such, there was a large amount of uniformed military and an honor guard and media. The priest (who all but admitted that he had never met the subject of the memorial) told us that she would be admitted through the gates of glory because she was a nice person, hard working and suffered a terminal illness at a young age. This as opposed to RCC policy that only the baptized faithful have any hope and all others should be treated as heretics.

When my cousin died of luekemia the day before her 12th birthday we all prayed for her soul that she may enter heaven.

My wife’s aunt (and her husband) whom go to mass literally every day and have for all their lives and are involved in all kinds of church activities and wheels for meals type programs are now barely able to take care of themselves. Meanwhile, the loving members of their parish could care less. It is beginning to look like my wife and I are going to have to move them the 250 miles so that we can help.

Uhm, well… they are family. They should be the responsibility of the family. That being said …

My beau’s uncle, a long time deacon in the Byzantine Catholic church has been moved from Florida to Dallas so he could be properly taken care of while here.

My grandmother, mentioned above, when she became too ill to be taken to the church which was one block away (and mind you, me and my cousins helped push her wheelchair to Mass in the hot Texas heat on numerous occasions) would have appointments made with the priest so that he could come and administer the Holy Eucharist to her.

About 15 years ago I attended a mass with my sister during Christmas. The sermonette, masterfully delivered by the priest was all about Mary’s decision to be the mother of Jesus, no time for the Son of God who though sinless, paid the penalty of my sin on the cross and rose again on the third day and is now seated at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for me.

Okay, so? Didn’t Christ’s mother, Mary, command us to, “Do whatever he says?”

Which reminds me of my sister’s husband, actually a nice guy but informs me on a regular basis that he would never be anything other than Catholic. This in spite of the fact that I never bring up religion and he hasn’t feasted on the wafer since I have known him, about 20 years. After all, the Catholic Church (building) is beautiful and full of statues and stained glass that are actually quite helpful to those who are illiterate to understand the gospel. Meanwhile, I can only listen to my brother-in-law complain about his widowed mother who re-married a “hustler” (my BIL’s description, not mine) a fine Catholic man who met my BIL’s mother standing in line at the confessional. He now controls all of her financial assetts.

That’s one person. There are many like him, who aren’t even Catholic.

However, most importantly, it’s not a “wafer.” It’s the Holy Eucharist. Next. That’s the cool thing about Catholic churches. They’re beautifully ornate and with incense, music, and architecture help to make Mass a full body experience. Sorry, I would never (and never did!) give that up for a plain cross in a plain 4 walled building of the few Protestant churches I’ve seen.

My paternal Grandmother, a staunch life long Catholic, who’s sister was a nun (she served as a nurse in a Catholic hospital before her death) had the pastor of her hospital roomate perform her funeral. This pastor, a Major in the Salvation Army was the only person outside of family who bothered to visit her during the last 6 months of her life. He shared the Gospel of Jesus with my Grandmother and She accepted. This led to me accepting Christ as savior several moths later.

Ok, so, where was the family to get all the visiting done and appointments set up? Priests are busy you know.

That being said, when my grandfather died of cancer in the 70’s, my cousin (above) of luekemia, and grandmother, again, all had visits from family as well as parish. Don’t know what happened with your grandmother there. Sounds like someone dropped the ball.

more …

 

[GodIsGracious]

Well here I am, a sinner saved by grace of God the Father through faith in His Son, Jesus. I’m an anathema to those who are baptized by their Bishop and regularly partaking in the body and blood. And the advice I get from the lovely people here is get myself properly instructed in the catechism, as if I cannot read it without the assistance of the helpful people and staff at my local RCC.

If we didn’t think you could read it, we wouldn’t suggest otherwise. However, proper instruction is needed as can be seen by all the interpretations of the bible that thirty thousand plus Protestants have.

Compare and contrast this to practically every Bible church I have ever attended. Smiling faces and an interest in me or any one else who is visiting. It’s night and day and it’s because instead of eating a wafer or having the good fortune of having parents that had the priest sprinkle water on their head at 3 weeks of age, they have “Christ in you.”

But hey, freedom of religion and all.

And see, this is just more examples to show me that really, the only appeal that Protestant churches have are the welcoming committee and social hour they call worship.

Next, I would like to introduce you to concept of “personal responsibility.” My priest spoke around that this past Sunday during the homily. The only difference between a Protestant picking up a bible and studying it, and a Catholic, is we have a magesterium, guided by the Holy Spirit that will teach us the fullness of the Truth. Protestants get their own interpretations and lots of “feel good” warm fuzzies.

The point to my post was that you could point out any number of data points as to what’s “wrong” with Catholics and the community, and there are the same number of datapoints to show what’s right, more even.

Yes, freedom of religion, and that God for that too!

 

[Jon_Hus]

…
Next, I would like to introduce you to concept of “personal responsibility.” My priest spoke around that this past Sunday during the homily. The only difference between a Protestant picking up a bible and studying it, and a Catholic, is we have a magesterium, guided by the Holy Spirit that will teach us the fullness of the Truth. Protestants get their own interpretations and lots of “feel good” warm fuzzies…

Seriously, exactly which planet are you from? How did you get here and when are you going back?

 

[GodIsGracious]

Seriously, exactly which planet are you from? How did you get here and when are you going back?

Srsly! I’m based in reality. From what you wrote, and the fact that you seemed to want to disparage Catholics, I made my post.

Do you not have “personal responsibility” in your reality?

 

[Hesychios]

There’s a lot to unpack here. The first clue that you are about to be deceived is when an educated christian refers to NFP as “Rythm.” The only people who use that word today are those actively seeking to beat on NFP with any stick available. (or perhaps a 60+ year old who has been an island castaway for decades…).

Since this is now a “take a whack at Mike” thread. I can understand why you want to jump in here

BTW, I am approaching 60, but not a castaway, which you can determine by reading the archives.

It should be noted that the poster doesn’t believe that the “Roman Catholic church” is the last word on ANY matter of faith and morals (an assertion I infer via his Eastern Orthodox affiliation).

I will not argue with that.

I am, as you correctly point out, a member of the Orthodox church. Not a good member, no one should follow my example.

I also have to wonder if this poster has actually read Humane Vitae.

I have not only read it, I have a copy at home in the bookcase.

It’s readily available online. It quite clearly states that marital sex has a twofold purpose: procreative and unitive. One may make the argument that it primarily stresses the procreative function, but may not rationally argue that HV teaches that sex is “solely for the purpose of creating life.”

I think that I did a fairly good job of summarizing the intent of the document, for one sentence. Is the procreative function the reason God invented sex, or not? It surely seems to me to be the overriding gist of the entire argument of Pope Paul VI.

I really doubt that anyone could do better in one sentence. No one who has criticized me yet has been able to do it. Everyone seems to disregard the fact that I just wanted to put the issue into perspective, I was not writing a theological tract. I even told the OP that if he cannot get over those issues (I called minor fluffs) to his own satisfaction he should not consider Orthodoxy. Obviously, it is to Latin Catholics advantage to make as much hay as possible over the issue, it being one of the few perceived “trump cards” one might play against non-Catholics so I can understand the Latin Catholic frustration.

I actually admire the document Humane Vitae in some ways (Pope John Paul was prescient in his prediction of what could happen to society if birth control use becomes widespread), but I feel very strongly that allowing Natural Family PLANNING is a serious contradiction. Someone here tried to cover that by saying that NFP is only for medical purposes, but I do not recall reading that before now. Do all Latin Catholics here agree with that? Why is it called “planning”? Who first called it that?

In other words, if a husband or wife feels an urge to copulate with dear spouse, but does not do so because it is a fertile period, are they then in a state of mortal sin? Are they risking damnation?

Latin Catholics very often attack Holy Orthodoxy over “contraception” when they themselves do not actually understand the church’s position. They just make a lot of assumptions and mislead inquirers with a quick one-liner “they approve of contraception” which is and always has been an incorrect way of explaining the Orthodox practice. What I am saying is that it seems to be OK to use shorthand to criticize the Orthodox position, but not OK when criticizing the Latin Catholic position.

Which brings us back to the original topic of this thread. Instead of a gentle correction like: “I beg to differ, let me explain” or some other intelligent dialog, which I would have appreciated and responded to, I get bashed.

It goes a long way to explaining why the OP posted what he did:
Are catholics their own worst enemy??

 

[Jon_Hus]

Next, I would like to introduce you to concept of “personal responsibility.” My priest spoke around that this past Sunday during the homily. The only difference between a Protestant picking up a bible and studying it, and a Catholic, is we have a magesterium, guided by the Holy Spirit that will teach us the fullness of the Truth. Protestants get their own interpretations and lots of “feel good” warm fuzzies.

You think that you know the how/why of my Bible study and my feel good fix but the truth of the matter is you are just repeating what you have heard parroted over and over again. Try to find some original source material. It will give you some much needed credibility.