Are catholics their own worst enemy??

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Hesychios said:
Since this is now a “take a whack at Mike” thread. I can understand why you want to jump in here 😃

BTW, I am approaching 60, but not a castaway, which you can determine by reading the archives.
I will not argue with that.

I am, as you correctly point out, a member of the Orthodox church. Not a good member, no one should follow my example.
I have not only read it, I have a copy at home in the bookcase.
I think that I did a fairly good job of summarizing the intent of the document, for one sentence. Is the procreative function the reason God invented sex, or not? It surely seems to me to be the overriding gist of the entire argument of Pope Paul VI.

I really doubt that anyone could do better in one sentence. No one who has criticized me yet has been able to do it. Everyone seems to disregard the fact that I just wanted to put the issue into perspective, I was not writing a theological tract. I even told the OP that if he cannot get over those issues (I called minor fluffs) to his own satisfaction he should not consider Orthodoxy. Obviously, it is to Latin Catholics advantage to make as much hay as possible over the issue, it being one of the few perceived “trump cards” one might play against non-Catholics so I can understand the Latin Catholic frustration.

I actually admire the document Humane Vitae in some ways (Pope John Paul was prescient in his prediction of what could happen to society if birth control use becomes widespread), but I feel very strongly that allowing NFP is a serious contradiction. Someone here tried to cover that by saying that NFP is only for medical purposes, but I do not recall reading that before now. Do all Latin Catholics here agree with that?

In other words, if a man or wife feels an urge to copulate with dear spouse, but does not do so because it is a fertile period, are they then in a state of mortal sin? Are they risking damnation?

Latin Catholics very often attack Holy Orthodoxy over “contraception” when they themselves do not actually understand the church’s position. They just make a lot of assumptions and mislead inquirers with a quick one-liner “they approve of contraception” which is and always has been an incorrect way of explaining the Orthodox practice. What I am saying is that it seems to be OK to use shorthand to criticize the Orthodox position, but not OK when criticizing the Latin Catholic position.

Which brings us back to the original topic of this thread. Instead of a gentle correction like: “I beg to differ, let me explain” or some other intelligent dialog, which I would have appreciated and responded to, I get bashed.

It goes a long way to explaining why the OP posted what he did:
Are catholics their own worst enemy??
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I am not eloquent enough to say this perfectly academically.

What I have always learned was that sex was for two purposes: procreative AND unitive for a married couple.

Because of that, should spouses have sex during an infertile time of the month they would not be in a state of mortal sin as sex, in that instance, would be for the unity of the couple. This allows couples who are beyond child bearing years to still be able to have relations without being in a state of mortal sin.

BTW, since you read Humane Vitae, and I have not, then I have a question. Is this not stated in Humane Vitae? That sex is for both a unitive and procreative function in a couple?
 
GodIsGracious said:
I am not eloquent enough to say this perfectly academically.

What I have always learned was that sex was for two purposes: procreative AND unitive for a married couple.

Because of that, should spouses have sex during an infertile time of the month they would not be in a state of mortal sin as sex, in that instance, would be for the unity of the couple. This allows couples who are beyond child bearing years to still be able to have relations without being in a state of mortal sin.

BTW, since you read Humane Vitae, and I have not, then I have a question. Is this not stated in Humane Vitae? That sex is for both a unitive and procreative function in a couple?
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Ok, that’s fine.

So what if a couple choose not to have sex (when they desire it) because it is a fertile time period?

[NOTE: I need to point out that I made a mistake in the post above. I know that Pope Paul VI wrote Humane Vitae. I wanted to say ‘Pope Paul’, I don’t know why I typed ‘John’ in there 🤷 ]
 
GodIsGracious said:
…What I have always learned was that sex was for two purposes: procreative AND unitive for a married couple.

Because of that, should spouses have sex during an infertile time of the month they would not be in a state of mortal sin as sex, in that instance, would be for the unity of the couple. This allows couples who are beyond child bearing years to still be able to have relations without being in a state of mortal sin.

BTW, since you read Humane Vitae, and I have not, then I have a question. Is this not stated in Humane Vitae? That sex is for both a unitive and procreative function in a couple?
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Question: Does your spouse know you are talking about your intimate life on the internet?
 
Hesychios said:
Ok, that’s fine.

So what if a couple choose not to have sex (when they desire it) because it is a fertile time period?

[NOTE: I need to point out that I made a mistake in the post above. I know that Pope Paul VI wrote Humane Vitae. I wanted to say ‘Pope Paul’, I don’t know why I typed ‘John’ in there 🤷 ]
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Dunno. YOU read it! 😃 Seriously, I don’t know the answer to that but I remember reading it somewhere a looooooooooooooong time ago. I just forgot it. Perhaps someone else can answer this.

One thing, I don’t think we’re expected to be constantly having sex either, whether during a fertile time or not.
 
Catholics see church as a Temple.

Protestants see church as a synagogue.

You don’t say “Hi!” to folks entering a Temple.

And you don’t not say “Hi!” to folks entering a synagogue.
 
GodIsGracious said:
Where have I been talking about personal intimate details?
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Since you are by your own admission a good Roman Catholic and you lay out the when and for what reasons, the answer then is no, your spouse does not know.
 
Jon_Hus said:
Since you are by your own admission a good Roman Catholic and you lay out the when and for what reasons, the answer then is no, your spouse does not know.
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That is incorrect. You have drawn a conclusion from a question that did not answer your question.

Some questions for you:
  1. Where have I laid out the when, wheres, and what fors regarding sex?
  2. Where have I ever stated I was married?
  3. How could you have drawn the conclusion my spouse does not know I have laid out any particulars based on a question I have asked? You made an assumption. Two infact. I will leave it as an exercise to the student (you) as to what your first assumption is. 😉 I will help you out with a clue: read question #2.
 
Hesychios said:
I don’t think anyone yet has suggested that. 🙂

Although there is that concept of doing one’s duty for the spouse 😊. Different issue 😃
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Question, why did you only quote part of my reply to you? It made my reply look completely different. You didn’t even indicate where you made deletions. :tsktsk:

As for “spousal duties,” well… that makes it seem like such a chore.
 
GodIsGracious said:
Question, why did you only quote part of my reply to you? It made my reply look completely different. You didn’t even indicate where you made deletions. :tsktsk:
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Very sorry!

After rereading it I can see how that could change the tone of your message.
 
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hi GodIsGracious,
GodIsGracious said:
Code: 
  		 				  So what if a couple choose not to have sex (when they desire it) because it is a fertile time period?
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Yes, twice. The last time about twelve years ago when I bought a copy.

But I have already stated my opinion, and have been taken to task for it :). So I don’t really think you want me to answer the question. 😃
GodIsGracious said:
Seriously, I don’t know the answer to that but I remember reading it somewhere a looooooooooooooong time ago. I just forgot it. Perhaps someone else can answer this.

One thing, I don’t think we’re expected to be constantly having sex either, whether during a fertile time or not.
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I don’t think anyone yet has suggested that. 🙂

Although there is that concept of doing one’s duty for the spouse 😊. Different issue 😃
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GodIsGracious said:
That is incorrect. You have drawn a conclusion from a question that did not answer your question.

Some questions for you:
  1. Where have I laid out the when, wheres, and what fors regarding sex?
  2. Where have I ever stated I was married?
  3. How could you have drawn the conclusion my spouse does not know I have laid out any particulars based on a question I have asked? You made an assumption. Two infact. I will leave it as an exercise to the student (you) as to what your first assumption is. 😉 I will help you out with a clue: read question #2.
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Answer:
  1. Your post #61- kindly review it please.
  2. This is inferred by the fact that you are participating in the discussion and adding to same. If you were not married, you would have no pony in the race, so to speak. Unless of course you are a busybody, which I think is unlikely sense you are a good Roman Catholic.
  3. Go back and re-word this mess, try to make some sense.
 
Hesychios,

The reason why I said that we’re not expected to be having sex all the time because, and I guess this is just the way I read it, when you asked what about the couple of who refrains from sex during a fertile time, would they be in mortal sin sort of implies the following:
  1. If sex is merely for procreation, then …
  2. A couple must be constantly having sex during the fertile times of the month.
We gotta eat and pay the bills during this time of the month too! 😃

All I know is that as a Catholic, Latin Rite, I’ve never been taught that sex was merely and only for procreation, and that Natural Family Planning is a legitimate form of … uhm… birth control - I guess you can call it that. That even though NFP is approved of, it can still be used illicitly. As with anything, it can be taken and used sinfully.

That being said, this thread has actually derailed off topic because I don’t think that the OPs original intent was to merely discuss birth control or sex.
 
Jon_Hus said:
Answer:
  1. Your post #61- kindly review it please.
  2. This is inferred by the fact that you are participating in the discussion and adding to same. If you were not married, you would have no pony in the race, so to speak. Unless of course you are a busybody, which I think is unlikely sense you are a good Roman Catholic.
  3. Go back and re-word this mess, try to make some sense.
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Dude. Seriously. Get back to reeality.
  1. You’re taking it to mean that I am posting about myself. I am not.
  2. Just because I am participating does not mean that I am either a busy body or have no pony in the race. As a Catholic, and should I want to get married (another clue for you) I must be informed. It also doesn’t mean I can’t be informed simply because I am not married. (Another clue for you.) This simply means that I know more about my religion. There is nothing wrong knowing about it even though I’m not married. This implies that I can’t know anything about being a priest either, since I am a woman.
  3. Personal responsibility - retake reading comprehension. Clearly, if you’ve misread my post #61 as me talking about myself, then it explains why you cannot understand #3.
I think you’re just upset at a response I had towards you so you’re trying to attack me and discredit me. I don’t think any reasonable Catholic would assume that I shouldn’t know about sex and the Catholic church’s teachings on it simply because I am not married. It makes me informed.

Next, consider that your interpretations of the bible to be fallible. At least I get mine from a learned source. And I don’t have to believe whatever it is you think you know about it.

This is the end of the discussion on my part. Make your response. I’m sure you will.
 
Are catholics their own worst enemy??
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Sometimes. On this thread, I would say, “Yes.” 🙂

Having said that… we can ALL be our own worst enemy!
 
Hesychios said:
The Roman Catholic church is not the last word on the meaning of sex in a marriage, and it approves of birth control using the rhythm method, which completely contravenes the stated theory of Humane Vitae that essentially says sex is solely for the purpose of creating life.

🙂
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Actually for Catholics it is the last word, the Church that was founded by none other than the word of God, “Jesus Christ " the word become flesh”.

Jesus gave authority to the Church He said He would never leave. " I will be with you always, even to the end of time."

So the Church is the last word, and the last word is “Jesus.”
 
hawkeye said:
Actually for Catholics it is the last word, the Church that was founded by none other than the word of God, “Jesus Christ " the word become flesh”.

Jesus gave authority to the Church He said He would never leave. " I will be with you always, even to the end of time."

So the Church is the last word, and the last word is “Jesus.”
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👍👍👍
 
hawkeye said:
Actually for Catholics it is the last word, the Church that was founded by none other than the word of God, “Jesus Christ " the word become flesh”.

Jesus gave authority to the Church He said He would never leave. " I will be with you always, even to the end of time."

So the Church is the last word, and the last word is “Jesus.”
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Actually the Orthodox church is the last word, the Church that was founded by none other than the word of God, “Jesus Christ " the word become flesh”. 👍

Jesus gave authority to the Church He said He would never leave. " I will be with you always, even to the end of time."

So the True Church is the last word, and the last word is “Jesus.”

***“There are not 100 people in America who hate the Orthodox religion. There are, however, millions who hate what they think the Orthodox religion is.”
 
Hesychios said:
Actually the Orthodox church is the last word, the Church that was founded by none other than the word of God, “Jesus Christ " the word become flesh”. 👍

Jesus gave authority to the Church He said He would never leave. " I will be with you always, even to the end of time."

So the Church is the last word, and the last word is “Jesus.”
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WRONG…The Catholic church IS the true church, unfortunately for the Orthodox, they broke off in 1054 in unity with the pope, but the Catholics just kept on going. Never looking back. Don’t get me wrong, I have much respect for Orthodox, but they somehow have a problem with listening to God as commanding St. Peter to be the first pope.
 
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