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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Okay, I just spent a half hour deleting two pages of insults, innapropriate language, and arguing. Either stay on the topic of the thread will be closed.
- Status
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Colgate
Guest
This is the passage that I was talking about, where Jesus seems to be saying that homosexuality is at least ok.
“The disciples said to him, ‘If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.’ But he said to them, ‘Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are **eunuchs **who have been so from birth, and there are **eunuchs **who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.’” (Matthew 19:1-12)
That’s the passage. It all depends on how you interpret His reference to ‘eunuchs’, and we do not exactly know what He meant. In this context, He obviously did not mean eunuchs as in neutered servants in a royal court, but eunuchs as in sexual context - which could very well mean people who were not born to be sexually active with women.
At any rate, Jesus told us to throw no stones at anyone unless we are sinless - and none of us are. Moral judgment in the hands of man is a dangerous device.
PS. Homosexuality has been with humanity since time immemorial and it is sometimes observed even in the animal kingdom. True, modern society has made homosexuality a lot more widespread, but it was never non-existent to begin with. If you are a Christian and believe that God was in some shape or form involved with the birth of the Universe (whether you believe in the Big Bang and evolution like Catholics and Mainline Protestants or believe in six-day creation like the evangelicals), then to claim that homosexuality is ‘unnatural’ is to dangerously claim that God created something, and then changed His mind about it, implying He is less than almighty.
This kind of closed-mindedness is the true blasphemy; liberal Christianity is not. Christian opponents of homosexuality are not opposing homosexuality based on the word of God; they are only dressing religion on their personal prejudices against homosexuality. They are using their faith, which should be kept holy and inviolate, as a weapon in muddy dogfights against the liberals. THIS is the true mark of blasphemy, false believers who do not care about the survival of the Church, and indeed, Pharisees.
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
Not the point, and I would’ve assumed you’re bright enough to know that.Got it, keep your sins secret, quiet and darkness. Condemn those whose sins are exposed to the light of day.
The point is that, when sin is made public, and the sinner is obstinate in his sin, it is appropriate for a school (in this case) to sever its relations, lest people get the impression that the school (in this case) supports the sin.
Peace,
Dante
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
considering Jesus was an observant Jew, in light of the Levitical prohibitions, that doesnt seem like a remotely reasonable interpretation.
we dont have to make a moral judgement in this case. the Scripture clearly indicates that homosexual activity especially, along with all fornication is immoral. it isnt our moral judgement, its G-ds.
it is never observed in the animal kingdom. animals will mount anything, they are completely driven by hormones, they have no knowledge of gender, and they are unable to form intent in the matter. that is no where near analogous to our situation.
homosexual behavior isnt G-ds creation any more than murder, or lying is. that is mans doing.
usccb.org/nab/bible/leviticus/leviticus18.htm
obviously it is based on the word of G-d.
actyually it seems to be the word of G-d, not our personal feelings.
if it werent for G-ds prohibition, then why would any one care about it at all?
the survival of the Church isnt in question. we have survived far greater controversies. this isnt even a tempest in a teacup compared to the various heresies.
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jdnation
Guest
Actually we do know exactly what He meant. The context explains it. Jesus when refuting divorce in Mat 19 when the Pharasees bring up the difficulties that exist between a husband and a wife. The disciples lament rhetorically that since there is so much difficulty in marriage, it is better not to marry. Jesus then explains to them why they must not worry by explaining that there are people who God has set aside who should not marry. Christ is referring to men who do not marry and live celebately by the term ‘eunuchs,’ which is a universal term that could mean men who are born with sexual deformities, men who might be castrated later in life and that some men in order to pursue a life dedicated to God and the study of the Law. In the first two instances, it refers to people who had no choice whether by birth or because men made them that way, either placing them in a position that demands it, or also by castration. And lastly there is one who takes a vow or lives a celebate lifestyle for the sake of being close to God. In all instances, regardless of how one is a eunuch, the person must live celebately. So if you want to interpret this to mean a homosexual, then homosexuals must refrain from ALL sexual activity.
You are wrong and completely misunderstand the Creation account. Evolution and the Big Bang have no factual basis in science. They are secular anti-God philosophies. Plain and simple. And I am Catholic and believe in 6-Day Creation, so it’s not simply some evangelical thing. If you read Mat Chapter 19, Christ begins to refute divorce by stating that IN THE BEGINNING God made them male and female for the purpose of marriage! Jesus Christ Himself affirms the Creation Account, that Adam and Even were real, that Noah and the Flood were real. It is also clearly infalliably defined Dogma that Adam and Eve were real and sin came as a result of the fall.
Homosexuality did NOT EXIST at the beginning of creation. It and many of the world’s ills are the result of the Fall and corruption of the created world. Observations in the animal kingdom mean nothing. The animal Kingdom is also part of Nature and Nature is also fallen and cursed. Add to that, claims of homosexual behavior are only perceived in animal behavior. Animals are not the same as people. They do things and behave instinctively. Male dogs will often mount other male dogs when they get a whiff of the female dog pheremone. Male Octopuses will sometimes mate with other male octopuses because they are under the impression that the other might possibly be a female. Also animals adopt such behaviors to communicate things of a completely different nature. Again male dogs for example will hump other male dogs as an act of domination. Male Bonobo chimpanzees will engage in genital rubbing in attempts to deflate situations of agression and high tension.
There are no true examples of ‘homosexuality’ in nature that are properly like the homosexual condition in human beings which is admittedly a much more emotional condition with feelings very much like heterosexuals. And even if there was actual homosexuality practiced in the animal kingdom, nature has been cursed since the fall, so to expect it to be a measure of perfection is an error. Besides there are plenty of animal behaviors we would be labelled ‘insane’ if we followed suit, such as incestuous sex and killing and eating the runt for stamina. So I wouldn’t cling to nature if I were you. Nature is NOT God. Do not worship it and set it as an ideal virtue to follow. You are a human being and thus you are more than that. So long as you consider yourself an animal in the evolutionary chain, you will be inclined to behave like one and justify all kinds of unnatural things.
God DID NOT create homosexuals. Just as God did not create drunkards, gluttons, adulterers, abusers, violent tendencies, pedophiles, murderers, disease, suffering, or death etc etc… (Which according to you, would’ve also been there in human nature from the beginning along with homosexuality, does that make them right too?) All these things are a result of sin and the Fall and the curse that fell upon nature under man’s dominion. The perfect creation that God intended to create has been marred and corrupted! Homosexuality is one of many symptoms of this fallen world.
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jdnation
Guest
As I explained, the Christian opposition to homosexuality is very much based on God’s commandments. Since the days of Sodom and Gamorrah, since God explicitly gave the law to Moses in the Old Testament, calling homosexuality and adultery a grave abomination worthy of death. Christ came and full affirmed the moral Law and upheld the Scriptures. Christ is the Word of God Himself made incarnate! So Christ was there from the beginning, and it was also Christ who established the laws against homosexuality in the Old Testament. It is your heretical and erronous interpretation of the Gospel account of Matthew that is contradictory! Christ and God do NOT contradict themselves! They are one and the same! The new Testament writings also explicitly condemn homosexuality. The Church has faithfully continued to teach this for the past 2000 years. Even in the recent approved apparitions uptil today today by the Virgin Mary has her condemn homosexuality in her messages. Are we suddenly to think that your ‘modern society’ now has some amazing revelation and insight to overturn thousands of years to clear teaching and the very law established by God Himself???
It is your liberal thinking that is unbiblical and irrational, and unscientific and without any grounds whatsoever. But what would you expect? That you would be right and Almighty God who created and knows how the universe functions and intimately knows and sees into the heart and lives of every human being in existence… would be wrong?
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Colgate
Guest
jdnation/
Sorry, buddy. You completely lost me when you said you believe in the six-day literal creation.
The Holy Church never opposed evolution explicitly, not even in the 19th century. In the second half of the 20th century, the Vatican recognized the scientific arguments of evolution and it has been that way since.
And how can you even trash the Big Bang theory? Don’t you know that it was origially proposed by the Belgian Catholic priest/physicist in the 1920s? It is the biggest Catholic contribution to the post-Genesis view of the origins of existence (even if the liberal media tries to ignore it), and you would just willingly discard this heritage of ours? When you should be shoving it in every single non-Catholics/atheist person’s face that you encounter?
It’s your prerogative to believe what you want, but you must believe the six-day literal creation story with two things in mind;
And plus, I put far less value on the Old Testament than I do on the actual words of Jesus, who at times completely contradicted the laws of the prophets in the Old Testament, as vividly demonstrated in the Apostolic Gospels. Sodom and Gommorrah mean little to me - and at any rate, the two cities were guilty of something FAR WORSE than homosexuality, which is the attempted gang-rape of two visitors (angels) to their cities.
Sorry, buddy. You completely lost me when you said you believe in the six-day literal creation.
The Holy Church never opposed evolution explicitly, not even in the 19th century. In the second half of the 20th century, the Vatican recognized the scientific arguments of evolution and it has been that way since.
And how can you even trash the Big Bang theory? Don’t you know that it was origially proposed by the Belgian Catholic priest/physicist in the 1920s? It is the biggest Catholic contribution to the post-Genesis view of the origins of existence (even if the liberal media tries to ignore it), and you would just willingly discard this heritage of ours? When you should be shoving it in every single non-Catholics/atheist person’s face that you encounter?
It’s your prerogative to believe what you want, but you must believe the six-day literal creation story with two things in mind;
- It is not Catholic, and most Catholics do not share your view - certainly not His Holiness
- Your belief may embarass our religion in this secular world
And plus, I put far less value on the Old Testament than I do on the actual words of Jesus, who at times completely contradicted the laws of the prophets in the Old Testament, as vividly demonstrated in the Apostolic Gospels. Sodom and Gommorrah mean little to me - and at any rate, the two cities were guilty of something FAR WORSE than homosexuality, which is the attempted gang-rape of two visitors (angels) to their cities.
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Podo2005
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ManOnFire
Guest
Homosexuals in the U.S. have their own Buyers Guide of companies to patronize: www.hrc.org/buyersguide. They rank companies that are more in line with their agenda. The list is very enlightening. They advise members of “where to shop” and to “take action now.” President Joe Solmonese says, “Now that we have an unprecedented opportunity to effect dramatic change for our community, it is more important than ever that we keep our allies in this fight close at hand,” and “Every day we make choices that send a message about our values.” If they truly believe in equality, then they won’t mind if we send a message about our values.You’re right we can’t but what can you do? All we have is numbers. They have the media, the politicians, Hollywood, public universities. All of which form a powerful gestalt for controlling the minds of the masses. Not to mention, they’ll also play the “oppressed minority” card.
You need to wrench these weapons away from them if you really want to have a chance of winning this fight. However, running headlong in the manner that you’re describing is a fool’s errand.
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Lostwanderer, I respectfully disagree. We have the power of numbers. We spend far more overall money than they do, due to pure numbers. We are simply more likely to spend money on staple goods like food and clothing for our kids. People seem to have the impression that they have more money. They have more disposable income because they are less likely to have the costs of raising kids, which is not considered disposable income. Since they believe in equality, maybe we should have a buyers guide of our own that reflects our values.
The major homosexual groups are not calling for a cure, or even finding a cause for those who seem to have an involuntary predisposition. They’re looking for more evidence to support their views. Or course, some is voluntary as Lindsey Lohan has demonstrated.
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
I’m sorry, I’m not anti-capitalist or anything but I can’t see how relying on companies and brute consumerism is gonna change the fact that they have more influence in many facets of society. Heck, this is more like the reverse of boycotting. Boycotting isn’t effective enough so how is this any better?
Homosexuals have the sympathy of mainstream media. They are already indoctrinating kids at public schools. Liberal politicians in office are favoring their agenda. You speak out against them and you will be more likely to be lumped along with nuts like the Westboro cult (or worse, arrested for a trumped up “hate crime”). People say they are willing to pay that price but they don’t realize that while it may make them a martyr for their cause, its true foolishness lies in the fact that what society thinks of you does affect how well a message goes through. What good is protesting on the street when networks like CNN will just paint you as a bunch of “homophobic bigots”? Don’t be naive, nobody will listen to you. Nobody’s going to want to stand next to you when you’re so heavily regarded as the bad guy. That’s the power of controlling such vast influence over people and it spreads the message far more effectively than just buying this and that.
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Alethiaphile
Guest
Uh, no, but different genitalia is certainly an outward sign of other deeper differences beneath the surface. That’s what orthodox Christianity is, an account of the what lies beneath the surface. The sin of non-orthodoxy, including the pro-“gay marriage” movement, is that it is intellectually lazy and reductionist. Ultimately, you must believe that sexual differences are meaningless and trivial.
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jdnation
Guest
And you suffer the same problem of many who ARE lost because they do not believe in what God specifically has said and the authority of the Bible and Church.
Yes it has. It condemned all secular and naturalistic evolution, which is the ONLY philosophy believed by the scientific consensus of today. We do have people like you and even members of the clergy and even the current Pope who unfortunately are mistaken and do not realize how you undermine your faith, as you clearly are doing in your insistance on homosexuality not being sinful in direct opposition to God Himself! The Vatican did not recognize the scientific arguments of evolution. All we have is permission for Catholics to continue to study about it with caution. But the Church has NEVER made a direct infalliable declaration on Evolution. It has NEVER endorsed evolution! And it has NEVER stated anything against 6-day creation despite that it hasn’t specifically declared anything directly about it either, but there is enough to state that Adam and Eve are real people, our real parents and sin entered into the world through them and thus so did death and suffering. This is canon and infalliably recognized. But I doubt you take the Church seriously on that either given your open rebellion in regard to the Church’s openly stated and continuously reinforced moral position on homosexuality, so not only are you incorrect, but even if you were correct, you are now being a hypocrite by deciding that one Church position is right and another wrong when it suits you. Who are you?
So what? What does that have to do with anything? It doesn’t matter who the person is that came up with what. What matters ultimately, even in science, is whether they are right or they are wrong! I know many Catholics that hold all sorts of crazy heretical and erronous ideas, even if they are well meaning and nice people! And if you think we can chop of a few things of our faith to make it more palatable to atheists and they will happily accept it, the you obviously don’t really know these people, they will chuckle at you and insist you get rid of everything all the way down to the idea of a man coming back from the dead, and once you’ve gotten rid of everything they dislike, then you’ll suddenly find out that there’s no reason to keep any of it at all.
As for the Big Bang, if you are actually keeping up with current scientific affairs, even in secular science, it is being called into question. It is not holding up to scrutiny and there are severe problems with it that do not match up with what we know from real observational science. So not only has it once been a darling favourite of atheist scientists who will gladly take any explanation that helps further undermine Genesis and consequently the Old Testament and consequently the Gospels. But recent scientific enquiries into it that are now finding huge faults with the Big Bang model are actually pinning the blame on Christians! They say that the Big Bang was a Christian invention and that Christian beliefs are to blame and make for bad science! Don’t believe me? Look it up!
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jdnation
Guest
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- It has always been Catholic. It has been part of the faith since it was written. It is part of the faith because it is TRUE! The Church has never taken any official position on evolution. It has never endorsed evolution other than to allow Catholics to freely enquire and study it in order to determine the truth. A few off-hand remarks by a few priests, bishops or even the pope himself do not make it so.
- Actually the fact that there are people like you who openly deny teachings as clearly evident as homosexuality is an embarassment. It shows how you do not take your faith seriously, and are constantly aiding the enemy to undo the faith and the Church. And present a Church with followers who are divided against it. You profess yourself to follow Christ yet you openly disobey His commands and are possibly leading other people to also fall with you. And what do I care about the secular world? Was Christ popular in his time? Has the Church ever been popular with the masses who are always yelling at it to change this or that? The secular world has a lot more issues with the faith than just the Book of Genesis! The secular world is also ignorant and it is going to hell. And anyone is free to join them if that’s what they want…
Finally we agree on something! Belief in Genesis and the full authority of the Bible makes a big difference! You perfectly illustrate what I’ve been trying to tell Catholics who disregard this issue!!!
You may think a lot of things, but honestly look into the mirror and try to see what you really are. You are a human being. You are falliable. You are always at risk of having your senses and limited view of the world from your limited perspective lead you astray. You are very vulnerable to sin and error. You, even me! But God is not! God knows all! He was there! He tells us exactly what He did through His Word that He preserved through the faithful from Moses’ time all the way to the current vicar of his universal Church! The problem you have is that you do NOT believe that God’s Word is inerrant, nor trust His Church. You don’t believe God is capable. You are using your own finite mistaken human thought to judge God Himself! This is the folly of pride! That you think that you, an insignificant human being know better than Almighty God and doubt in His ability to clearly instruct humanity through His inspired Scriptures and Church. You commit the same mistake of Eve! Read Genesis carefully! The serpent merely asked Eve, “Did God really say…?” The devil introduced DOUBT to Eve! Eve doubted what God SAID, She doubted God’s Word! That was all it took! Then she was presented with a LIE as an alternative! Eve looked at the fruit. And doubting God’s Word, and desiring the Lie as an alternative, she “saw that it was good…” She began to use her own human perceptions and senses to determine truth for herself in the absence of God’s real instruction. She decided that what would do her harm would actually do her good! So she took it and ate it and the rest is history! Beware that you do not continue making the same mistake that she did!
This is true. If you read earlier posts of mine in this thread I have pointed out the hypocrisy of heterosexuals who condemn homosexuals when they themselves continue to masturbate, have sex outside of marriage, use contraceptives, and go to lengths to prevent procreation in sexual intercourse. But this is not the same as advocating sin just because we also sin. Homosexuals are NOTHING SPECIAL. They are human beings that sin just as easily as we do, and they can avoid sin just as easily as a heterosexual should! And even if you’d argue that they have a tougher time in terms of sexuality, it means nothing as we all have different crosses and problems in our life to bear, some arguably worse than homosexuality.
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jdnation
Guest
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Do not neglect that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God! And the Word incarnate is Christ! So to neglect the Old Testament is to neglect what Christ Himself, being God, who was there did! It was Christ who was created and was with Adam and Eve! It was Christ who destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah! It was Christ who gave the commandment to stone homosexuals and adulterers to death! And it is Christ who inspired the New Testament apostles to write condemnations of homosexuality and all other sexuals sins. Christ did not stop those men from stoning the adulteress to death! He merely said that whoever was without sin may willingly kill her. Given that not one man there was, to their credit they acknowledged it and walked away. But Christ is also merciful to all who acknowledge that they are sinners! So to those who will humble themselves and acknowledge God’s commandments, He will show mercy! But to those of you who will not, He will bring you to judgment!
Without the Old Testament, Jesus Christ is irrelevant. And I’m interested in seeing what precisely Jesus said or did that contradicted the Old Testament. Christ Himself said that He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it! He encouraged the apostles after His resurrection to spread the news of the Gospel by using the Old Testament passages as proof of His identity! As for Sodom and Gomorrah, homosexuality is one of the many problems and sins those cities were destroyed for. This much is alluded to. But homosexuality is certainly one of their problems. This much is certain.
Do not neglect that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God! And the Word incarnate is Christ! So to neglect the Old Testament is to neglect what Christ Himself, being God, who was there did! It was Christ who was created and was with Adam and Eve! It was Christ who destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah! It was Christ who gave the commandment to stone homosexuals and adulterers to death! And it is Christ who inspired the New Testament apostles to write condemnations of homosexuality and all other sexuals sins. Christ did not stop those men from stoning the adulteress to death! He merely said that whoever was without sin may willingly kill her. Given that not one man there was, to their credit they acknowledged it and walked away. But Christ is also merciful to all who acknowledge that they are sinners! So to those who will humble themselves and acknowledge God’s commandments, He will show mercy! But to those of you who will not, He will bring you to judgment!
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Holly3278
Guest
I agree. Boy do I agree!
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BobObob
Guest
I highly recommend that everyone on this thread watch the following videos and try to learn something from them:
homosexuality101.com/
youtube.com/watch?v=HFKWH4d4jsw
homosexuality101.com/
youtube.com/watch?v=HFKWH4d4jsw
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Colgate
Guest
I agree, Lost Wanderer. Christianity as a social force has been made impotent unless it talks the liberal talk.
To jdnation/
I am not going to argue with you on this matter. You clearly are a thoughtful man, and a good believer, and I am not going to change what you think on the Internet. I am merely trying to find a place for humanity’s scientific findings on the material world in the greater scheme of things that is God, while you are ignoring it. However, I’d point out one thing - Jesus did contradict the laws of the prophets just by forgiving the adulteress. He said He had come to fulfill them, because the Levitic laws were clearly inadequate and needed some total makeover. Can you imagine us still stoning adulteresses?
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jdnation
Guest
Then in closing, I’ll remind you that scientific findings are always interpreted by human beings according to their philosophies. Evidence does not speak for itself, it is interpreted to fit the framework of human worldviews which are always biased in one way or another. In the end you must realize that it is unwise to place falliable human authority over the clear revelation of God Himself who knows better than we think we do. God comes before man. Do not worship men in place of God!
As for Christ forgiving the adulterer. When the Pharasees brought the woman to Him to ask if it was right to stone her to death, they were trying to trap Jesus in order to see if He would get into trouble with the Romans or would openly hold to liberal ideas against the clear teachings of the Law to stone her to death. If Jesus openly told them to stone her to death, then the Pharisees could then accuse Christ of breaking the secular law because under the Roman occupation the Jews were forbidden to dish out this sort of justice of putting anyone to death (This is why the Jews took Christ to be judged by Pontius Pilate). But if Jesus told them to have mercy, then Christ would have contradicted the law as you have said and lose favor in the sight of the Jews!
But Christ saw through their trap and saw through their hypocrisy. After all if she’d been caught in the act of adultery, then where was the man??? So Christ instead told them that anyone could stone her providing they were without sin and thus justified in being judges. However, they knew they were unworthy and behaving hypocritically and would get in trouble, so defeated and in shame they left. When Christ approached her He asked her where her accusers were. She said there was no one. So under the same Law of the Old Testament, there were no witnesses or accusers left to bring her to trial! There was no evidence! The law required both parties, man and woman to be present to be accused! Some commentaries even suggest that she was not an adulteress, but rather some poor girl who was taken and tricked or forced to pretend that she was so the Pharasees could have some evidence to accuse Jesus of contradicting the Law whether of the prophets or the Romans! So if this conspiracy was through then they were all guilty for bearing false witness and for deceit, making Christ’s statement towards them more direct and pointed! And even if she was an adulteress, then Christ as God Himself has the power and authority to forgive sins! A divine right that He exercises here! Something that the Pharisees couldn’t understand when they asked how Christ could just say,“Your sins are forgiven.”
When you are saying that you believe Jesus was contradicting the Law of the Old Testament, you are behaving like the Pharisees who were hoping He would do just that! You accuse Jesus of precisely what they were hoping to!
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Sorry, I wouldn’t say that either.
What I would say is to wrench the popular control of those things (media, public schools, politics) from the left and at the very least give some even competition for both sides. I do not support the homosexual agenda any more than the other Christian conservatives on this site. Neither do I support though, the socially-suicidal and self-humiliating antics that are being suggested by the OP. Why I say this is just that I know that there’s a better way to skin the fickle feline that is this liberal propaganda. In this regard however, that is where we oughta stop thinking old-fashioned.
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Sophia86
Guest
I am afraid that the options are not so black and white as you seem to portray them my friend. Why so passionately against homosexual individuals? Why so angry? Encouraging protest and spouting that we live in a godless society, straight after quoting the incorrectly comparative 2.2 billion people who follow Christianity, strikes me as somewhat bemusing also…
Perhaps it is all this turmoil and anguish that you clearly harbour, which is distorting how you see things and disabling you from speaking common sense?
Sincerely you cannot be so anti-gay as to actively advocate protests against homosexuals who have done you know harm, through this forum? Is that what you are doing?
- Status