Are Christians not obligated to forgive if the person is not willing to repent?

[1neophyte]

Tim Staples also seems to agree with Jimmy here in this article
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/to-forgive-or-not-to-forgive-that-is-the-question

I think the key here is that both equate forgiveness with reconciliation. We can not reconcile with someone if they are still hostile towards us. We may be able to forgive them in our hearts and let go of the burden of unforgiveness in our hearts, but complete forgiveness with reconciliation can not happen without repentance.

In the Sacrament of reconciliation we must be repentant in order to receive forgiveness / reconciliation with God right? Sure, God holds out forgiveness/ reconciliation to all, but he doesn’t force it on anyone.

And, while Jesus prayed on the Cross that they might be forgiven that doesn’t mean that anyone was actually forgiven without them being sorry/repentant for their sins.

So Tim Staples is wrong as well. They’re only human. We must forgive them.

They’re using the same mentality as 8th grade boys whose main concern is how “far” they can go sexually without committing a sin. It’s a mentality that completely misses the point. We are commanded to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, and the Father forgives unconditionally, no matter how many mental gymnastics we do to project our own inability to forgive onto Him. Yes, it is a tall order, and yes, it takes a very, VERY long time to achieve it, but forgiveness without repentance is the very fruit that Jesus calls us to produce.

It takes two to reconcile, but it only takes one to forgive. You can never really force anyone to do anything, especially to reconcile, but that isn’t the command. The command is to forgive.

 

[1neophyte]

It’s very sad that such high profile apologists would use their influence to promote the acceptability of withholding forgiveness.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I do understand the set-up of how Christians see forgiveness and what you are saying here…and I also understand what you were asking.
But your use and Mr. Akin’s use of the word “obligated” is what jarred me.

A person can’t forgive someone just because they feel “obligated” to do so, or feel forced to. It has to come from inside their heart, IMO.
And they can’t *not *forgive someone if they are told not to.

Plus, forgiving someone doesn’t mean you are letting them off the hook for anything.

So in further answer to your question…some may feel they want to and can and should forgive someone who has not repented…and some may feel they should not/cannot.

The Christian scriptures show examples of both.

So for someone like this Akin fellow to claim he knows the “rules” about forgiveness seems very egocentric of him and unwise to me.

.

The esteemed theologian Jimmy Akin speaks only what Jesus taught. “If you forgive men their transgressions against you, then your Father in heaven will forgive you. But if you do NOT forgive men their transgressions, then your Father in Heaven will NOT forgive you transgressions.” Jesus forgave His executioners from the Cross, even when some of them were truly unrepentant. How can we do less?

 

[sirach2v4]

I have heard some apologist on EWTN radio say that forgiving somebody means we detach ourself from seeking revenge on another.

That my be a part of forgiveness, but it isolates that decision and state of one’s heart from the uphill climb of reconciliation. Forgiveness may be unconditional (emphasis on “may” as far as I know) but reconciliation may involve restitution or something else, like the other person seeking forgiveness himself.

I think it’s interesting what Judaism practices between the two high holy days of Rosh Hoshanna and Yom Kippur. A Jewish person is supposed to seek forgiveness from someone he had harmed, and relentlessly pursue them, begging for that forgiveness. Then, one can truly seek God’s forgiveness on the day of Atonement.

But the Talmud says (I wouldn’t know myself) that certainly the other party may still not forgive the first person. At that point, it’s a matter of making the best of the situation.

This makes me think of two things: 1) from time to time I see a family member, like a mother, talking to reporters and saying she will NEVER forgive such-and-such person for what they did, like murder. 2) It reminds me of Jesus talking about leaving our gift at the altar and going back to be reconciled with our brother, if HE has anything against us. That’s very Jewish advice.

When you see road rage today and cop killing, you know or strongly suspect that people are not thinking about God. They are acting very animal-like, not human or spiritual.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I do understand the set-up of how Christians see forgiveness and what you are saying here…and I also understand what you were asking.
But your use and Mr. Akin’s use of the word “obligated” is what jarred me.

A person can’t forgive someone just because they feel “obligated” to do so, or feel forced to. It has to come from inside their heart, IMO.
And they can’t *not *forgive someone if they are told not to.

Plus, forgiving someone doesn’t mean you are letting them off the hook for anything.

So in further answer to your question…some may feel they want to and can and should forgive someone who has not repented…and some may feel they should not/cannot.

The Christian scriptures show examples of both.

So for someone like this Akin fellow to claim he knows the “rules” about forgiveness seems very egocentric of him and unwise to me and…just plain bad advice!

.

I think if you read the article you would make more sense of it. For me it started to make sense when I heard Tim Staples say that he was equating forgiveness with reconciliation. He says that is what is meant by forgiveness in the Scriptures, unlike in modern times where people have separated forgiveness from reconciliation. If you then take that definition of forgiveness, rather than simply an internal forgiveness, but to actually regain full reconciliation with a person (which is what we expect from God in the Sacrament), then it starts to make sense that we can not have this full forgiveness / reconciliation if both parties are not willing to reconcile.

As far as forgiving someone in the sense of an internal forgiveness where we let go of anger, bitterness, grudges, etc, they are still advocating we do that for our own health. I know personally I must let go of these things as i don’t have the endurance to hold on to those things. If I am angry with someone I must eventually let go of it for my own health. Perhaps, I need to learn to do this better.

People on both sides of the issue are making good points. But, I think they are using different definitions of forgiveness. If you understand that Akin and Staples are using forgiveness as synonymous with reconciliation then it makes more sense. They are not advocating we hold grudges.

So it’s not that we should not have a heart to forgive them, but no matter how much we or God may want reconciliation, it requires both parties to want it.

Also, Jimmy talks about how even if we have reconciled with someone it doesn’t mean we can trust them or deal with them in the same way as before the incident. So forgiveness doesn’t mean we can forget or that we even can be with the other person. Take for example someone who forgives their rapist.

 

[Kay_Cee]

What do you make of Scriptures like these that imply some sins will not be forgiven?

I don’t think Jimmy is advocating holding onto grudges or anger, only that justice still needs to be satisfied. Even if we forgive a criminal for harming us they still undergoe prison. We still need to let go of the anger for our own sake even if the person does not repent.

Of course justice should be satisfied, but a refusal to forgive can negatively impact a person. If Jesus could forgive from the cross, while He was in all that pain and agony, who am I not to forgive my neighbor?

 

[fisherman_carl]

I do understand the set-up of how Christians see forgiveness and what you are saying here…and I also understand what you were asking.
But your use and Mr. Akin’s use of the word “obligated” is what jarred me.

A person can’t forgive someone just because they feel “obligated” to do so, or feel forced to. It has to come from inside their heart, IMO.
And they can’t *not *forgive someone if they are told not to.

Plus, forgiving someone doesn’t mean you are letting them off the hook for anything.

So in further answer to your question…some may feel they want to and can and should forgive someone who has not repented…and some may feel they should not/cannot.

The Christian scriptures show examples of both.

So for someone like this Akin fellow to claim he knows the “rules” about forgiveness seems very egocentric of him and unwise to me and…just plain bad advice!

.

Forgiveness in the Christian sense is not an emotion, though emotion may accompany it, but is a decision to be merciful and to forgive as Jesus forgivess. I use the word obligation because that is really what it is. Though, technically it should really be our response to God’s mercy toward us. We also have an obligation to love as Jesus commands us to do that also. And, even that should be a response to God’s love for us. Yet, from a psychological perspective you have a point that we can not always just decide do these things. It requires some healing and change of our own hearts first. And also some trust that God will make all things right in the end.

Note: the previous response before this ii was actually responding to someone else, but somehow clicked on your quote button.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Of course justice should be satisfied, but a refusal to forgive can negatively impact a person. If Jesus could forgive from the cross, while He was in all that pain and agony, who am I not to forgive my neighbor?

You have a point. It may be dangerous to tell people they don’t have to forgive someone who is not sorry. I know someone who is on a prayer team and he says one of the things that he tries to do is get people to forgive because that is what they need to do for their own healing. I can understand Akin and Staples only if their definition of forgiveness includes reconciliation. But, it seems as though it makes more sense to separate the two because it is possible for us to forgive without reconciliation. The authors try to say that God doesn’t obligate us to do what be doesn’t, namely forgive the unrepentant. That may be true, but there is a big difference between God and us. God doesn’t get hurt. We do. We need to forgive in order for our own healing.

 

[fisherman_carl]

have to say that I disagree strongly with this assessment. Mr. Staples confuses forgiveness, which only requires one party, with reconciliation, which requires two. God does not withold his forgiveness from us until we’re sorry. He’s constantly offerring his forgiveness to us, but by being unforgiving to others, we block ourselves from receiving this gift. Mr. Staples, with his advice, is actually placing Robert in a spiritually dangerous position, and setting him up for continuing emotional pain. I would refer anyone who is interested in learning more to my book, “Forgiveness: A Catholic Approach,” published by Pauline Books and Media.

Fr. SCOTT HURD

 

[DaveBj]

That’s interesting. You’ve done this before?

We (the CAF community) have thoroughly beaten this sad equine many times before. There is no easy way to pull up all the threads, but it can be done. Click on the “search” tab; you may have to click on “advanced search,” but in my forum setup “search” is enough. In the lower left there is an option to choose between viewing the search results in threads or in posts. Click the button for threads. Above that, in the window for Keyword(s), enter “forgive forgiveness”. To the right, in the window for User Name, enter my user name, “DaveBj”, because I have been an active participant in just about all threads on this topic. Then click on the “Search Now” button, and you’ll get a list of the threads. Clicking on any thread will get you the OP of that thread, and you can read through at your leisure, which should take you the rest of the week.

I preemptively forgive you.

 

[fisherman_carl]

We (the CAF community) have thoroughly beaten this sad equine many times before. There is no easy way to pull up all the threads, but it can be done. Click on the “search” tab; you may have to click on “advanced search,” but in my forum setup “search” is enough. In the lower left there is an option to choose between viewing the search results in threads or in posts. Click the button for threads. Above that, in the window for Keyword(s), enter “forgive forgiveness”. To the right, in the window for User Name, enter my user name, “DaveBj”, because I have been an active participant in just about all threads on this topic. Then click on the “Search Now” button, and you’ll get a list of the threads. Clicking on any thread will get you the OP of that thread, and you can read through at your leisure, which should take you the rest of the week.

Reading other people’s discussion can be beneficial, but one of the things I like about this forum is the ability to have a dialogue with people on an issue that may be bothering you. You can’t do that just reading old posts. You gave me the impression that you just wanted to blow me and my question off. Just because you may be tired of hearing a question does not mean others are or could not benefit from it either. If you don’t want to answer the question then don’t.

 

[DaveBj]

Reading other people’s discussion can be beneficial, but one of the things I like about this forum is the ability to have a dialogue with people on an issue that may be bothering you. You can’t do that just reading old posts. You gave me the impression that you just wanted to blow me and my question off. Just because you may be tired of hearing a question does not mean others are or could not benefit from it either. If you don’t want to answer the question then don’t.

By no means. Here is my take on the subject. Before God forgives our sins, He requires repentance and confession (in the Catholic world, to a priest; in the Protestant world to God in personal prayer). If God requires us to forgive those who sin against us without their repenting and asking for forgiveness, then He is requiring us to do something for others that He does not do for us. It is my contention that God does not require us to do for others what He will not do for us; therefore we are not required to forgive those who do not ask for it.

That said, it is probably a good idea to put offenses behind us, in the interests of preserving our own sanity. For example, this morning while was on my bike ride, a driver honked at me and rudely told me to get off the road. For me to continue to ruminate on that offense and other similar offenses would drive me batty. So, after it became obvious that I was not going to re-encounter this driver, I let it go. (Even that, however, does not require us to not put up shields against those who would continue to abuse us.)

Now we’re going to hear from some of the same people who opposed my line of thinking in previous discussions. 'Sawright, I’ve got my flame suit on

 

[HelenRose]

I have always believed that we were obligated to forgive whether they were repentant or not… So this is all new to me. I am still not sure if it is right or not. I should maybe pray about it.

First we must understand that to forgive does not mean allowing abuse to continue.

We forgive and we move on. It is not important that forgiveness is accepted or wanted.

It is easier to move on when we forgive because we quit going over and over and over the pain, the anger and the memories.

When we forgive we free ourselves from the past.
We wish well for those whom we forgive.
We recognize that they may have something to forgive us for as well.

A new life in Christ can begin again.

 

[fisherman_carl]

By no means. Here is my take on the subject. Before God forgives our sins, He requires repentance and confession (in the Catholic world, to a priest; in the Protestant world to God in personal prayer). If God requires us to forgive those who sin against us without their repenting and asking for forgiveness, then He is requiring us to do something for others that He does not do for us. It is my contention that God does not require us to do for others what He will not do for us; therefore we are not required to forgive those who do not ask for it.

That said, it is probably a good idea to put offenses behind us, in the interests of preserving our own sanity. For example, this morning while was on my bike ride, a driver honked at me and rudely told me to get off the road. For me to continue to ruminate on that offense and other similar offenses would drive me batty. So, after it became obvious that I was not going to re-encounter this driver, I let it go. (Even that, however, does not require us to not put up shields against those who would continue to abuse us.)

Now we’re going to hear from some of the same people who opposed my line of thinking in previous discussions. 'Sawright, I’ve got my flame suit on

I think I agree mostly with that. The thing though is what do they mean when they say to not forgive someone who is unrepentant? . That is what is dangerous to me. Do they mean to hold on to grudges, anger, unforgiveness in your heart? Like you I don’t think holding onto unforgiveness in one’s heart is a good thing. I don’t think it makes sense to hold onto unforgiveness in your heart indefinitely. If we must be always willing to forgive then we can not hold onto unforgiveness. It doesn’t work that way. However , I do agree with them that full reconciliation can only happen if both parties agree to it. And I think experiencing reconciliation with someone would be more powerful than just forgiveness in your heart alone.

 

[1neophyte]

The thing though is what do they mean when they say to not forgive someone who is unrepentant? .

They mean that they have a totally inaccurate understanding of who God is and what He does, and they want to substitute their own faulty understanding for what God has revealed through the Incarnation. It’s even sadder if they take the attitude of “here we go again” if the topic comes up, because they want to persist in their error. If you want to hold fast to a lie, you can’t complain if someone tries to correct you over and over again. In other words, when you’re dead wrong about something, it is always going to create a conflict when the truth is presented to you.

 

[Rosebud77]

What comes across in some posts here in that folk are judging others and withholding forgiveness? Saying that they should not be forgiven UNLESS AND UNTIL certain criteria are met…

And that dreadful word “obligated”

I am up late as I am trying to deal with what happened in the village at weekend when I was yet again ( a recurring theme) apparetnly accused of not working for charity when I am trading…

This work was checked and validated years ago by the Gardai but still it gets raised from time to time and itis appallingly painful to be thus accused,.

Yes I am hurting but also this time I am feeling so much sadness and compassion for people who can do this kind of thing which is based on village gossip ie on lies. Years back I had used the bathroom in the shop across the road and a lady buying a rather lovely jersey wanted to chat,

I excused myself as my stall was unattended and said that if she wanted to chat by all means come to my stall.

I later had a phone call telling me that I was going into shops touting for customers and it all went downhil from then. Incredibly painful is injustice…

No anger in me but acute frustration , utter pain and I have to clear it so emails are off, I would love to meet these people face to face AND HUG THEM …

When Jesus tells the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more that is practical forgiveness but He leaves the decision and the future to her. As he does with us.

My role is twofold… To love and to protect the others I love. Loving means not holding on to hurt done for any reasotn. The people here will never change and they lose so much joy i that,. All who hurt are poor. Let us enrih them with the love God has for them bt judge and accuse even more.

I doubt now I will be able for any more trading and that is a hard hard thing for me now My burden from their deeds…

 

[1neophyte]

'Sawright, I’ve got my flame suit on

That’s the perfect imagery to use. Jesus came to set a fire on the earth, expressed that He wished that it was already burning, and you’ve protected yourself from ever being touched by it, using “your takes” and “your contentions” as insulation. Your assertion that there is a “Protestant world” and a “Catholic world” is particularly amusing.

 

[DaveBj]

That’s the perfect imagery to use. Jesus came to set a fire on the earth, expressed that He wished that it was already burning, and you’ve protected yourself from ever being touched by it, using “your takes” and “your contentions” as insulation. Your assertion that there is a “Protestant world” and a “Catholic world” is particularly amusing.

Having lived in both worlds, I can assure you that there are. Actually, there are multiple Protestant worlds. But that’s off-topic. As for the flame suit, your response indicates a complete misunderstanding of the imagery. But that, too, is off-topic.

 

[1neophyte]

Having lived in both worlds, I can assure you that there are. Actually, there are multiple Protestant worlds. But that’s off-topic. As for the flame suit, your response indicates a complete misunderstanding of the imagery. But that, too, is off-topic.

I meant in reality. The contrived “worlds” we create have no basis in the reality we’re called to live in, just like the contrived god that some create to satisfy their own desires not to forgive. That god has no relation to the God revealed in Jesus…the God that actually exists. And there was no misunderstanding about your flame suit. You’re impervious to criticism. It’s impressive.

 

[goout]

Forgiveness presumes that I can love another person. In other words I will the good of that person. Even though I will not be dining with my transgressor, I can still practice love.

How will I stand in the sight of God if I do not love my enemy? How can I even say the Lord’s prayer with a straight face, if I do not forgive my transgressors?
It seems to me that Mr Akin has conflated the state of being reconciled with God and in a state of grace, with our mandate to forgive one another.