Are conservative Catholics over-emphasizing Mary?

[garysibio]

Let me explain why I asked this question. Yesterday I was listening to an interview of a man from the Blue Army by Fr. Mitch Paces. At one point the man said you can’t take the Bible literally. Fr. Pacwa corrected him saying there were parts you couldn’t take literally. The man said nothing giving me the impression that he disagreed but didn’t want to get into it. Yet this man had no problem with taking Mary’s words at Fatima quite literally. Although this incident made me ask, it is not alone. Even in the CAF I have seen comments that almost seemed to center our faith on Mary rather than Jesus.

I am talking about this kind of popular spirituality, not the Church’s teachings.

 

[CalCatholic]

In my opinion, any veneration of Mary or any of the saints should lead you to Jesus, this is the richness of the Catholic faith

 

[CalCatholic]

“Mary’s role in the Church is inseperable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it.”
CCC 964

 

[garysibio]

In my opinion, any veneration of Mary or any of the saints should lead you to Jesus, this is the richness of the Catholic faith

Yes, it should, but I’m talking about those people who won’t let Mary lead them to Jesus. They seem to want to stop at Mary and never concern themselves with Jesus at all. Those Catholics who are always talking about what Mary has done but never speak a word about Jesus.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I don’t thnk so. She is the Mother of God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Short answer: NO.

Longer answer (You knew I would). . .

First, you are taking one man to represent a whole subclass of ‘conservative Catholics’ and then you aren’t even discussing what he actually said but your IMPRESSION that he was disagreeing with Mitch. . .and THEN you’re extrapolating that into a total reliance on Mary’s words at Fatima, putting THAT onto the subgroup ‘all conservative Catholics’ and using THAT to postulate that somehow said group ‘overemphasizes Mary’.

Really, all you’re doing is putting up a pile of strawmen.

If Mary seems ‘over-emphasized’, the MAJORITY Of the time it is because others, Catholics and non-Catholics, have UNDER-emphasized her.

Of course, the proper emphasis would never put Mary, a creature, on the same level as Jesus, our God. But acknowledging her proper role is Christocentric because to know Mary is to know Jesus.

 

[garysibio]

I don’t thnk so. She is the Mother of God.

So you are fine with Catholics who only focus on Mary but never give Jesus a thought. You may be one of the people I see as a problem.

Again, I am not saying to ignore Mary; just let her do what she is supposed to do: lead us to Jesus.

 

[Allegra]

Unfortunatly, I think some people do view Mary as deity. I don’t think they fall into the conservative catagory though. (though some might.) As long as your veneration of Mary doesn’t lead you to worship her as a Godess, then it is a good thing.

 

[garysibio]

Short answer: NO.

Longer answer (You knew I would). . .

First, you are taking one man to represent a whole subclass of ‘conservative Catholics’ and then you aren’t even discussing what he actually said but your IMPRESSION that he was disagreeing with Mitch. . .and THEN you’re extrapolating that into a total reliance on Mary’s words at Fatima, putting THAT onto the subgroup ‘all conservative Catholics’ and using THAT to postulate that somehow said group ‘overemphasizes Mary’.

Really, all you’re doing is putting up a pile of strawmen.

If Mary seems ‘over-emphasized’, the MAJORITY Of the time it is because others, Catholics and non-Catholics, have UNDER-emphasized her.

Of course, the proper emphasis would never put Mary, a creature, on the same level as Jesus, our God. But acknowledging her proper role is Christocentric because to know Mary is to know Jesus.

Please go back and read what I said in #1. I never said he was the only person I’ve heard who was guilty of this. He was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back as far as I was concerned.

As far as the rest of your comments, Christianity is about Jesus. Mary, if allowed to do her job, leads us to Jesus. She does not keep the focus on herself. I’ve just been running into Catholics lately who seem to think it’s all about Mary. If you haven’t, that’s terrific.

 

[garysibio]

Unfortunatly, I think some people do view Mary as deity. I don’t think they fall into the conservative catagory though. (though some might.) As long as your veneration of Mary doesn’t lead you to worship her as a Godess, then it is a good thing.

Good point. Anyone who takes Mary to that point is a heretic, not a conservative Catholic.

 

[mark_a]

As the American Church pandered to Protestantism, conservative Catholics dug in their heels. The American Church, through Ewtn, Catholic radio, and Catholic Answers seems to be headed back on track.

God bless 'em!!

Without Mary, Catholicism seemed as if it was becoming just another also-ran.

 

[Hboggs]

Unfortunatly, I think some people do view Mary as deity. I don’t think they fall into the conservative catagory though. (though some might.) As long as your veneration of Mary doesn’t lead you to worship her as a Godess, then it is a good thing.

I have seen instances where Mary was “venerated” to the extent that Jesus was secondary, if at all. On the flip side, I think that younger Catholics, only using those that I have seen, may hardly give her a thought. Part of this problem comes from (another thread) the lack of TEACHING the faith during Homilies. Thank God I’ve experienced excellenty preaching/teaching.

On a side note, I have previously made a decision not to pray the Hail Mary with groups of other, almost exclusively older, Catholics. Why? I can not speed-speak the words as fast as they due and I honestly feel that there is little “prayer” going on. Just “ger-r-done”. It usually takes these groups about 15 minutes from start to finish. If you watch Mother Angelica’s Rosary broadcast, I think you see a wonderful example. Personally, I have learned the applicable verses and recite them after saying “the first …” It takes me about 30 minutes +/- to pray the Rosary.

 

[CountrySteve]

hey when does veneration becoming worship and can someone give an example srry i have no answer God bless

 

[Lutgardis]

Let me explain why I asked this question. Yesterday I was listening to an interview of a man from the Blue Army by Fr. Mitch Paces. At one point the man said you can’t take the Bible literally. Fr. Pacwa corrected him saying there were parts you couldn’t take literally. The man said nothing giving me the impression that he disagreed but didn’t want to get into it. Yet this man had no problem with taking Mary’s words at Fatima quite literally. Although this incident made me ask, it is not alone. Even in the CAF I have seen comments that almost seemed to center our faith on Mary rather than Jesus.

I am talking about this kind of popular spirituality, not the Church’s teachings.

I cannot speak to the interview because I didn’t hear it, but in regards to some Catholics over emphasizing Mary, I think that is true. I, too, have experienced people advising others to pray to Mary, the Saints–but not to Jesus or our Father! I’m not sure what is behind this, really, but it is not the Church’s teaching, as you have intimated. The Church teaches that we worship ONLY God–Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is termed latria. Mary is given highest veneration of all human beings because of her unique cooperation in the salvation of mankind. This is termed hyper-dulia. The Saints triumphant (those in heaven) receive veneration, too, because they held fast to the faith to the end and have been made perfect. This is called dulia.

I am speculating here, but I’ll venture a few ideas: First, I do suspect that some Catholics are a little blurry on what the Church teaches in respect to this. Perhaps some do not understand there should be a definite distinction between worship of God and veneration given to Mary and the Saints. Or perhaps it is the uncomfortable feeling that comes over some who feel that God is so transcendent that He is, therefore, completely unknowable and unreachable (and admittedly, we are limited in knowing Him wholly). But coupled with this, they may not really comprehend (at least viscerally) that He is personal, immanent, and desires a love relationship with them. Finally, part of it, today, could be a knee jerk reaction to Protestants’ underemphasis on Mary’s role in salvation. Whatever the case, I feel your pain! I do not think people are consciously focusing in a wrong way. I think it is a blind spot, done for reasons we may not be able to relate to or comprehend. I think it is something to pray about

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Yes, it should, but I’m talking about those people who won’t let Mary lead them to Jesus. They seem to want to stop at Mary and never concern themselves with Jesus at all. Those Catholics who are always talking about what Mary has done but never speak a word about Jesus.

It is impossible to talk about what Mary has done and not speak a word about Jesus. Your statements are illogical to the max and are without foundation,

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Think of the Wedding Feast at Cana.

Jesus did not really want to “fix” the embarrassing situation their friends faced, when the wine ran out.

His Mother, Mary, … what did she do? … she just about “insulted” Jesus, the Son of God! … she ignored Jesus and His objection “Woman!, my time has not yet come!”]. Mary turned to the waiter and said, “Do what He tells you to do.”

And so, Jesus … pretty much venerated His own Mother … Mary didn’t know what He was going to do! … She only knew that Jesus would “fix it”.

Can you imagine!

[In my head, I visualize Jesus being played for television by that actor, John Ratzenberger, who plays a mailman in the television program, “Cheers”. Jesus was a Carpenter and He got criticized for spending too much time in bars. So, when His mother orders Him to fix the problem … I can see Ratzenberger saying … “Awww… Ma!!!”. "]

So, what will happen if Mary tells Jesus to give you a free pass into Heaven?

So … say the Rosary each day.

It might we worth it.

**

 

[Anthony_V]

If you are truly Catholic, then it is impossible to venerate Mary more than we worship Christ. The Most Holy Sacrifice of the mass is greater than all the hyper-dulia we could ever offer in a lifetime (or eternity, for that matter).

Focusing our prayer lives on Mary is not at any rate unhealthy. When you take these prayers to the offering at mass, the prayers return to Christ through Mary, and it becomes about Christ. When you receive, it is Christ who is physically present and mingling with your flesh, while Mary is only spiritually present with all the other angels and saints.

The only way I can see that you could “worship” Mary is believing her to be a god, and offering her the Holy Sacrifice of the mass. It’s fruitless, because Latria is reserved for God, and Mary is by no means a god. Mary will completely and utterly reject your “worship” (sacrilege).

Any and all* veneration* you give her she gives to her son. She keeps none of it. She offers you in her prayers, and says, “look my son, here is a person in need. I ask that you help them.” And then Christ helps us, or gives Mary the power to help us.

 

[garysibio]

hey when does veneration becoming worship and can someone give an example srry i have no answer God bless

I don’t know how to answer this question. I’m not God; I don’t know what’s in someone’s heart. I can only go by what they say and do. The people I am commenting on are always talking about Mary but never mention Jesus. To my thinking this is a clear sign they have left the narrow path and need to be corrected. There could be other indications as well but this is the one I see the most.

 

[garysibio]

I cannot speak to the interview because I didn’t hear it, but in regards to some Catholics over emphasizing Mary, I think that is true. I, too, have experienced people advising others to pray to Mary, the Saints–but not to Jesus or our Father! I’m not sure what is behind this, really, but it is not the Church’s teaching, as you have intimated. The Church teaches that we worship ONLY God–Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is termed latria. Mary is given highest veneration of all human beings because of her unique cooperation in the salvation of mankind. This is termed hyper-dulia. The Saints triumphant (those in heaven) receive veneration, too, because they held fast to the faith to the end and have been made perfect. This is called dulia.

I am speculating here, but I’ll venture a few ideas: First, I do suspect that some Catholics are a little blurry on what the Church teaches in respect to this. Perhaps some do not understand there should be a definite distinction between worship of God and veneration given to Mary and the Saints. Or perhaps it is the uncomfortable feeling that comes over some who feel that God is so transcendent that He is, therefore, completely unknowable and unreachable (and admittedly, we are limited in knowing Him wholly). But coupled with this, they may not really comprehend (at least viscerally) that He is personal, immanent, and desires a love relationship with them. Finally, part of it, today, could be a knee jerk reaction to Protestants’ underemphasis on Mary’s role in salvation. Whatever the case, I feel your pain! I do not think people are consciously focusing in a wrong way. I think it is a blind spot, done for reasons we may not be able to relate to or comprehend. I think it is something to pray about

Good points. It was just a small comment made during the interview that inspired this thread. I don’t know that the person who made the comment would be guilty of crossing the line between hyper-dulia and latria or not. He didn’t say enough for me to say anything in that regard. He just made me think of all of the people who, from what I see, are guilty of this.

 

[garysibio]

It is impossible to talk about what Mary has done and not speak a word about Jesus. Your statements are illogical to the max and are without foundation,

Unless you are aware of every conversation I have ever had with anyone I don’t understand how you can make such a statement. If all you can contribute are snide comments, don’t waste the 1s and 0s.