Are conservative Catholics over-emphasizing Mary?

[Monte_RCMS]

And yet, we are responsible for our own actions. Therefore it is right to use judgement to determine what is leading someone closer to or away from God. Or would you have everyone simply ignore potential spiritual problems and just assume they don’t exist?

You are responsible for YOUR own actions.

Not to determine what is leading someone ELSE closer to or away from God.

Worry about YOUR OWN spiritual problems.

 

[Lutgardis]

I think some of you are being a little hard on Gary and Allegro. This is a sincere question based on feelings that trouble some Catholic brothers and sisters. Why are you biting their heads off about their personal observations? I, too, have been witness to and heard things from Catholics that defy reason, i.e. such as Mary physically felt every lash of the whip from the beating that Jesus endured. I am not aware that the Church teaches this. Can anyone point me to it? Those who have expressed such beliefs are very devout Christians; but to me, and others, this kind of talk is just a little over the top. If you think there is no way possible for others to take things too far, if you’ve never formed any opinions based on empirical evidence–then carry on. Otherwise, lighten up and be a little charitable! We all love Mary our mother. We believe she suffered unspeakably in witnessing the death of her son, our God. But even if you don’t agree with the observation, see the honesty of the question and don’t attribute a mean spiritedness to the questioner that he obviously did not intend.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think some of you are being a little hard on Gary and Allegro. This is a sincere question based on feelings that trouble some Catholic brothers and sisters. Why are you biting their heads off about their personal observations? I, too, have been witness to and heard things from Catholics that defy reason, i.e. such as Mary physically felt every lash of the whip from the beating that Jesus endured. I am not aware that the Church teaches this. Can anyone point me to it? Those who have expressed such beliefs are very devout Christians; but to me, and others, this kind of talk is just a little over the top. If you think there is no way possible for others to take things too far, if you’ve never formed any opinions based on empirical evidence–then carry on. Otherwise, lighten up and be a little charitable! We all love Mary our mother. We believe she suffered unspeakably in witnessing the death of her son, our God. But even if you don’t agree with the observation, see the honesty of the question and don’t attribute a mean spiritedness to the questioner that he obviously did not intend.

I can see your point and I don’t people are being all that hard, truthfully.

You see, it is a very subjective and ‘perceptual’ FEELING that’s being talked about.

People who come from a more formal culture and are more introverted FEEL uncomfortable when they see people in a less formal, more extroverted personality-type acting in a way that they would feel uncomfortable for themselves. But that does not mean that the actions are intrinsically wrong.

People who feel that they have absolutely the right, true, and proper understanding of Jesus and Mary and how to ‘relate’ to them, whether these people are ‘traditional style’, ‘modern style’ or somewhere between, tend to believe that their position is right and ‘middle’ and that therefore anything to the ‘right’ OR ‘left’ is ‘over the top’.

And they ALSO tend to assume that a behavior, we’ll say Marian attention, if it is ‘less’ than what they would do is "too Protestant’ and if it is MORE than they would do, "over-emphatic’.

PLUS they tend to attribute the ‘lesser’ attention OR the greater solely to motives which are ‘wrongheaded’ or 'evil. . .and NEVER seem to think that there could be any LEGITIMATE reason for the person to act that way.

And yes, I see it in both. It’s easy for most Catholics to say that those who are uncomfortable with people who speak, in their OPINION “too much” of Mary are only doing it because they neglect Jesus, are superstitious, ignorant, etc. Only FOOLS and EVILDOERS, you see, give “MORE” than what THESE people would give.

But it works the other way. It’s also easy for Catholics to say of our Protestant friends who give, in our opinion 'TOO LITTLE" to Mary are only doing so because they are ignorant, bigoted, narrow-minded, anti-Catholic, etc. For only ANTICATHOLICS would give ‘less’ than what THESE people would give.

IMO, it would behoove us to be less concerned about people giving ‘more or less’ attention than we 'FEEL" they should, and to be MORE concerned about giving appropriate catechesis and education about what TRUTH and teachings really are, and to be more careful that we are discerning TRUTH OURSELVES.

And to stop judging by appearances based on people doing more, or doing less, than we personally ‘feel’ that they should.

 

[simple_soul]

Think of the Wedding Feast at Cana.

Jesus did not really want to “fix” the embarrassing situation their friends faced, when the wine ran out.

His Mother, Mary, … what did she do? … she just about “insulted” Jesus, the Son of God! … she ignored Jesus and His objection “Woman!, my time has not yet come!”]. Mary turned to the waiter and said, “Do what He tells you to do.”

And so, Jesus … pretty much venerated His own Mother … Mary didn’t know what He was going to do! … She only knew that Jesus would “fix it”.

Can you imagine!

[In my head, I visualize Jesus being played for television by that actor, John Ratzenberger, who plays a mailman in the television program, “Cheers”. Jesus was a Carpenter and He got criticized for spending too much time in bars. So, when His mother orders Him to fix the problem … I can see Ratzenberger saying … “Awww… Ma!!!”. "]

So, what will happen if Mary tells Jesus to give you a free pass into Heaven?

So … say the Rosary each day.

It might we worth it.

**

Monte, in the way you are describing this are you saying that Mary can sway or change the Will of God?

 

[Allegra]

You are responsible for YOUR own actions.

Not to determine what is leading someone ELSE closer to or away from God.

Worry about YOUR OWN spiritual problems.

I think you are being a little rude and you seem to be deliberatly misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I am concerned with my own spiritual problems. I’m concerned because I’ve recognized actions and heard statements made by other Catholics that I think could amount to a misunderstanding of church teachings and could compell them to misplace their spiritual attentions in a way that does not bring them closer to God. I’m concerned that similar well-meaning but misguided notions may be effecting my relationship with God. Do you feel that it is a complete impossibility that a Catholic may fall into the trap of using a rosary or scapular as a charm instead of the prayer tool it is intended for? If not, then why do you criticize me for being concerned about the possibility?

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Monte, in the way you are describing this are you saying that Mary can sway or change the Will of God?

God does answer prayers.

And miracles do happen.

And there is a bible story about God NOT wiping out a city, contrary to His own original intention, if only ONE good person could be found there.

Maybe someone can find the chapter and verse.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I think you are being a little rude and you seem to be deliberatly misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I am concerned with my own spiritual problems. I’m concerned because I’ve recognized actions and heard statements made by other Catholics that I think could amount to a misunderstanding of church teachings and could compell them to misplace their spiritual attentions in a way that does not bring them closer to God. I’m concerned that similar well-meaning but misguided notions may be effecting my relationship with God. Do you feel that it is a complete impossibility that a Catholic may fall into the trap of using a rosary or scapular as a charm instead of the prayer tool it is intended for? If not, then why do you criticize me for being concerned about the possibility?

Take care of yourself … the beam in your eye, not the mote in someone’s else’s eye.

 

[marietherese4]

When I was wondering about how my relationship with Mary should be, I found it helpful to read some of St. Louis de Montfort’s writings about her. To me they help clarify very well how devotion to her in no way decreases devotion to Jesus, and I would recommend his writings to anyone else who wanted to understand Marian devotion better. Here’s a quote that seemed especially relevant to this thread:

"Since grace enhances our human nature and glory adds a still greater perfection to grace, it is certain that our Lord remains in heaven just as much the Son of Mary as he was on earth. Consequently he has retained the submissiveness and obedience of the most perfect of all children towards the best of all mothers.

We must take care, however, not to consider this dependence as an abasement or imperfection in Jesus Christ. For Mary, infinitely inferior to her Son, who is God, does not command him in the same way as an earthly mother would command her child who is beneath her. Since she is completely transformed in God by that grace and glory which transforms all the saints in him, she does not ask or wish or do anything which is contrary to the eternal and changeless will of God. When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.

Moses by the power of his prayer curbed God’s anger against the Israelites so effectively that the infinitely great and merciful Lord was unable to withstand him and asked Moses to let him be angry and punish that rebellious people. How much greater, then, will be the prayer of the humble Virgin Mary, worthy Mother of God, which is more powerful with the King of heaven than the prayers and intercession of all the angels and saints in heaven and on earth."

 

[babylonsfalling]

Yes, it should, but I’m talking about those people who won’t let Mary lead them to Jesus. They seem to want to stop at Mary and never concern themselves with Jesus at all. Those Catholics who are always talking about what Mary has done but never speak a word about Jesus. <—Never met one of those people…are you sure this exist?

Sounds like you making a huge exaggeration here. I’ve met people who I think make too big a deal of Mary but never met a person who fits what you describe. And the ones who I believed made too big an issue of Mary weren’t particularly conservative anyway so I don’t know where you got that from. Do you think no liberal Catholics make too big a deal of Mary?

There must be as least one of those conservative Catholics on this site who fit that bill. Maybe you could link to a post of his/hers?

 

[Bezant]

Let me explain why I asked this question. Yesterday I was listening to an interview of a man from the Blue Army by Fr. Mitch Paces. At one point the man said you can’t take the Bible literally. Fr. Pacwa corrected him saying there were parts you couldn’t take literally. The man said nothing giving me the impression that he disagreed but didn’t want to get into it. Yet this man had no problem with taking Mary’s words at Fatima quite literally. Although this incident made me ask, it is not alone. Even in the CAF I have seen comments that almost seemed to center our faith on Mary rather than Jesus.
I am talking about this kind of popular spirituality, not the Church’s teachings.

You touch on something that’s definitely common, although perhaps as other posters have noted you’re overstating its prevalence and in fact, missing something.

While I haven’t noticed Catholics who put Mary above Christ, I have noticed a couple who seem to treat her on equal footing. There are definitely a few Catholics who IMO tread a slippery slope, treating the Fatima apparitions or other unapproved visions as canon law.

But Marian obsession pales in comparison to the scant attention given to the Holy Spirit. In practice, He’s little more than a footnote.

 

[RosaryFan]

Mary is our mediatrix between us and her Son. How can we ever over-emphasize that? Her only job is to bring souls to her son and that’s all she does. I’m baffled by this thread.

And whoever implied the Holy Spirit is neglected, or that the honor He receives pales in comparison to Mary’s honor… speak for yourself! I’m well aware of the presence of the Holy Spirit and the gifts offered by the Holy Spirit in the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. I’m well aware of the necessity of those gifts for the benefit of my salvation. And I’m well aware that the Holy Spirit is God - the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. And I’m well aware that Mary is not God, just His mother (and mine). I have to admit, I speak on the phone with my mother several times a day. Does that mean I put her above the Holy Spirit because I spend more time per day speaking with my mother than with the Holy Spirit?

 

[Allegra]

Take care of yourself … the beam in your eye, not the mote in someone’s else’s eye.

Either you just don’t get it or your purposefully trying to be mean. Either way, I’m not going to bother explaining the difference between condemning someone else and looking out for possible temptations yet another time. You’d do well to follow your own advice.

 

[Allegra]

But Marian obsession pales in comparison to the scant attention given to the Holy Spirit. In practice, He’s little more than a footnote.

I disagree. For many people, He is the person of the Trinity they feel closest to. I think he may get mentioned less simply because He is probably the hardest to wrap our mortal minds around.

 

[joshrp]

Let me explain why I asked this question. Yesterday I was listening to an interview of a man from the Blue Army by Fr. Mitch Paces. At one point the man said you can’t take the Bible literally. Fr. Pacwa corrected him saying there were parts you couldn’t take literally. The man said nothing giving me the impression that he disagreed but didn’t want to get into it. Yet this man had no problem with taking Mary’s words at Fatima quite literally. Although this incident made me ask, it is not alone. Even in the CAF I have seen comments that almost seemed to center our faith on Mary rather than Jesus.

I am talking about this kind of popular spirituality, not the Church’s teachings.

Why do we ask these sorts of questions? Do you think Jesus whines and complains everytime someone honors His mother. What is our problem people?

 

[Allegra]

Why do we ask these sorts of questions? Do you think Jesus whines and complains everytime someone honors His mother. What is our problem people?

I don’t think the problem being refered to has anything to do with honoring Mary. I have spoken with Catholics who have very strange misconceptions about our faith. My college roommate, for instance, swore up hill and down dale that the Trinity consisted of God, Jesus, and Mary. She swore that is what she was taught in Catholic school. It took weeks of gentle hinting to talk her down off of that ledge! I have a coworker who goes on about how Mary is actually “Mother Earth”. The pitfall posters have been referring to go miles beyond reasonable homage or asking of intentions.

 

[formerlysure]

I wonder who these people are who are devoted to the Virgin Mary but give no thought to Jesus. I’ve been raised Catholic and never met someone like this. I know of many women in particular who feel a certain closeness with Mary, and pray to her often but those intentions are always a request to Mary to intervene with her Son on their behalf. If one understands that any intentions and prayers shared with Mary, any tribute to her, is out of respect, love and reverence for her as the Mother of Jesus, by extention, prayers to her are to God as well.

I personally have started a practice of saying the Rosary before I get out of bed in the morning, and before I read and go to sleep in the evening. The rosary is very much oriented toward Mary, but in her capacity as the Blessed Virgin Mother of Jesus. As a mother, there is comfort for me in speaking to another mother in prayer in this way. Before I begin, I share my intentions in a private prayer to God both of thanks, and sharing the intentions I have in mind in praying the Rosary. I don’t know if this is how it is normally done - I’m learning. I only know that it is working wonders in my life.

We Catholics only believe in one God but we have many avenues to reach Him and include in in our lives. It is part of the richness and beauty of our faith that we can pray to the Saints and the Queen of All Saints, Mary in addition to praying directly to God.

 

[Allegra]

I wonder who these people are who are devoted to the Virgin Mary but give no thought to Jesus. I’ve been raised Catholic and never met someone like this. I know of many women in particular who feel a certain closeness with Mary, and pray to her often but those intentions are always a request to Mary to intervene with her Son on their behalf. If one understands that any intentions and prayers shared with Mary, any tribute to her, is out of respect, love and reverence for her as the Mother of Jesus, by extention, prayers to her are to God as well.

I personally have started a practice of saying the Rosary before I get out of bed in the morning, and before I read and go to sleep in the evening. The rosary is very much oriented toward Mary, but in her capacity as the Blessed Virgin Mother of Jesus. As a mother, there is comfort for me in speaking to another mother in prayer in this way. Before I begin, I share my intentions in a private prayer to God both of thanks, and sharing the intentions I have in mind in praying the Rosary. I don’t know if this is how it is normally done - I’m learning. I only know that it is working wonders in my life.

We Catholics only believe in one God but we have many avenues to reach Him and include in in our lives. It is part of the richness and beauty of our faith that we can pray to the Saints and the Queen of All Saints, Mary in addition to praying directly to God.

I’ve known many people who attach a rosary or a picture of Mary to the visor of their car and touch it when they are going through a yellow light or are looking for a parking space. My concern is that this is not really a genuine prayer and really more of a superstition. I’m sure that most of the people I’ve known who do this are healthy in the rest of their prayer life, but my question is, are such practices really bringing us closer to God? It seems to me that when I say those quick, “Lord-please-cut-me-a-break” prayers in the heat of some daily struggle I’m going through, they don’t really do much to further my relationship with God. Also, if the only time I pray is when I want some little convenience in my day to day life, aren’t I completely missing the target of the real prize? (Eternal life with Jesus)

 

[joshrp]

I don’t think the problem being refered to has anything to do with honoring Mary. I have spoken with Catholics who have very strange misconceptions about our faith. My college roommate, for instance, swore up hill and down dale that the Trinity consisted of God, Jesus, and Mary. She swore that is what she was taught in Catholic school. It took weeks of gentle hinting to talk her down off of that ledge! I have a coworker who goes on about how Mary is actually “Mother Earth”. The pitfall posters have been referring to go miles beyond reasonable homage or asking of intentions.

Mary doesn’t like it when you try to call her things that she is not. We talk about her like she is some kind of statue. Look, she knows when we are honoring her and when we are not. Just don’t expect her to be God or something she is not. That probably makes her very uncomfortable. I wouldn’t want people calling be Gaia, or the Holy Spirit. That would just freak me out. It probably freaks Mary out too.

 

[Bezant]

I disagree. For many people, He is the person of the Trinity they feel closest to. I think he may get mentioned less simply because He is probably the hardest to wrap our mortal minds around.

For many? I don’t agree (except perhaps Pentecostals), although maybe he gets less attention for the reasons you mention, and also his more ‘passive’ (for lack of a better adjective) role.

 

[Allegra]

Mary doesn’t like it when you try to call her things that she is not. We talk about her like she is some kind of statue. Look, she knows when we are honoring her and when we are not. Just don’t expect her to be God or something she is not. That probably makes her very uncomfortable. I wouldn’t want people calling be Gaia, or the Holy Spirit. That would just freak me out. It probably freaks Mary out too.

Do you think it is possible for a well-meaning Catholic to fall into this trap in a more subtle manner than what I described before?