Are conservative Catholics over-emphasizing Mary?

[joshrp]

Do you think it is possible for a well-meaning Catholic to fall into this trap in a more subtle manner than what I described before?

Probably. I think the problem is that people don’t treat Mary like a human being. She has some dignity because she is a human being, even if she weren’t the Mother of God. I’d bet she feels pretty awkward with some of the attention she gets. But I’m sure she has a good sense of humor about it. I think she is the kind of girl who knows how to laugh at herself when necessary.

 

[Allegra]

For many? I don’t agree (except perhaps Pentecostals), although maybe he gets less attention for the reasons you mention, and also his more ‘passive’ (for lack of a better adjective) role.

Passive? For most of us, He is the first of the Trinity that we encounter in the world. (Through the Sacrament of Baptism) He is the portion of God that becomes part of us when we recieve the Eucharist. Passive seem to me to be a funny term to describe the Holy Spirit.

 

[joshrp]

Honestly, I don’t think we focus enough on the saints. We kind of get into our little clique with Jesus and we don’t want anyone else involved in our prayer life.

 

[joshrp]

Jesus is probably thinking “Hey, why don’t you want other people, especially my saints, to participate in your prayer life? Do you want me to focus on you all the time? Why don’t you spend some time with other people, instead of begging me for everything all the time?”

 

[Bezant]

Mary is our mediatrix between us and her Son. How can we ever over-emphasize that? Her only job is to bring souls to her son and that’s all she does. I’m baffled by this thread.

If we take it as truth I see no need to be redundant. Is Mary’s role not strong enough that we can let her speak for herself, once?

This is a topic for another thread, but I notice a tendency amongst Catholics to over-state the point about the Eucharist and Mary. And frankly, while that will bring some to convert, it’s no wonder that some Protestants still think we worship her. It’s not just anti-Catholic bigotry and misunderstanding to blame, but also Catholic PI.

And whoever implied the Holy Spirit is neglected, or that the honor He receives pales in comparison to Mary’s honor… speak for yourself! I’m well aware of the presence of the Holy Spirit and the gifts offered by the Holy Spirit in the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. I’m well aware of the necessity of those gifts for the benefit of my salvation. And I’m well aware that the Holy Spirit is God - the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. And I’m well aware that Mary is not God, just His mother (and mine).

The matter’s not the Holy Spirit’s honour vs. Mary’s – all Christians recognise that – but that the personal devotion to Mary is IMO generally greater than that of the Holy Spirit.

I have to admit, I speak on the phone with my mother several times a day. Does that mean I put her above the Holy Spirit because I spend more time per day speaking with my mother than with the Holy Spirit?

Hypothetically speaking, no, but it could mean that you neglect your personal devotion to the Holy Spirit.

 

[joshrp]

If we take it as truth I see no need to be redundant. Is Mary’s role not strong enough that we can let her speak for herself, once?

This is a topic for another thread, but I notice a tendency amongst Catholics to over-state the point about the Eucharist and Mary. And frankly, while that will bring some to convert, it’s no wonder that some Protestants still think we worship her. It’s not just anti-Catholic bigotry and misunderstanding to blame, but also Catholic PI.

The matter’s not the Holy Spirit’s honour vs. Mary’s – all Christians recognise that – but that the personal devotion to Mary is IMO generally greater than that of the Holy Spirit.

Hypothetically speaking, no, but it could mean that you neglect your personal devotion to the Holy Spirit.

Honestly, I don’t know the Holy Spirit very well. It’s hard for me to think of a spirit, so I often forget Him. Maybe we should pray to Mary to introduce us more closely to the Holy Spirit. We don’t have to keep pitting them against each other. This is not like Coca-Cola or Pepsi people!

 

[Bezant]

Honestly, I don’t know the Holy Spirit very well. It’s hard for me to think of a spirit, so I often forget Him. Maybe we should pray to Mary to introduce us more closely to the Holy Spirit.

It IS understandable, in a sense, that Marian devotion is more prevalent than devotion to the Holy Spirit. Mary was flesh. We’re all flesh. She was a mother. We’ve all have and want those. The Holy Spirit’s quite obscure.

We don’t have to keep pitting them against each other. This is not like Coca-Cola or Pepsi people!

 

[joshrp]

It IS understandable, in a sense, that Marian devotion is more prevalent than devotion to the Holy Spirit. Mary was flesh. We’re all flesh. She was a mother. We’ve all have and want those. The Holy Spirit’s quite obscure.

Just like Mary helps us to know Jesus, Mary helps us to know the Holy Spirit. After all, Mary was the Spouse of the Holy Spirit now wasn’t she? Hmmm, did you ever think about that?

 

[joshrp]

Just like Mary helps us to know Jesus, Mary helps us to know the Holy Spirit. After all, Mary was the Spouse of the Holy Spirit now wasn’t she? Hmmm, did you ever think about that?

Who is more intimate with the Holy Spirit than Mary? She conceived a Child with Him didn’t she? She is the only human being in the history of the universe to have conceived a child with the Holy Spirit. Now that is what you should be focusing on.

 

[Bezant]

Just like Mary helps us to know Jesus, Mary helps us to know the Holy Spirit. After all, Mary was the Spouse of the Holy Spirit now wasn’t she? Hmmm, did you ever think about that?

The thought makes one

 

[Bezant]

Who is more intimate with the Holy Spirit than Mary? She conceived a Child with Him didn’t she? She is the only human being in the history of the universe to have conceived a child with the Holy Spirit. Now that is what you should be focusing on.

This is legitimate, you know, although it would be limited to concieve of the Holy Spirit only through Mary’s relationship.

 

[Blenderx]

I’ve known many people who attach a rosary or a picture of Mary to the visor of their car and touch it when they are going through a yellow light or are looking for a parking space. My concern is that this is not really a genuine prayer and really more of a superstition. I’m sure that most of the people I’ve known who do this are healthy in the rest of their prayer life, but my question is, are such practices really bringing us closer to God? It seems to me that when I say those quick, “Lord-please-cut-me-a-break” prayers in the heat of some daily struggle I’m going through, they don’t really do much to further my relationship with God. Also, if the only time I pray is when I want some little convenience in my day to day life, aren’t I completely missing the target of the real prize? (Eternal life with Jesus)

For some, I’m sure it is superstition. But charity demands we try not to assume the worst of others’ intentions, at least where we are not in a position of authority or opportunity to teach and correct. I think its also better if someone prays prayers of convenience, as you put it, than to not pray at all. God might use that little crack in the door to enter in further at some point. I read a few days ago of a man who had been living a life of sin and was out partying and drinking with a friend one night, and then the friend decided to stop at a brothel. The man decided to go home. He remembered when he got home that he hadn’t prayed his 3 Hail Mary’s that evening, as he had been taught to do since childhood, and got on his knees to do so. The BVM appeared to him then, and informed him that his friend, at that very moment was laying dead in the street, strangled, and this was to be his fate that evening as well, but that she obtained for him a different fate, due to his faithfulness in this devotion. No doubt this young man lived a better life after that!

My family has a rosary hanging from our visor. For us, it is a reminder to pray. I think it’s a beautiful little devotion for someone to touch their rosary while stopped at yellow light, before going through an intersection. A child clasps their mother’s hand before crossing a busy street, don’t they? It’s the same thing to me. Mary is a true mother to us and no doubt she cares for our physical safety as well as our spiritual well-being, and will intercede with her Son for this intention.

You have some good points in this thread, but I don’t doubt that the majority of ppl who are crossing the line, so to speak, are those who have been incorrectly formed theologically. I don’t think most of us need to worry about accidentally treading that way. I’m reminded of this quote from St. Therese of Lisieux: “Do not be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin too much. You can never love her enough. And Jesus will be very happy, because the Blessed Virgin is His Mother.”

 

[Blenderx]

It IS understandable, in a sense, that Marian devotion is more prevalent than devotion to the Holy Spirit. Mary was flesh. We’re all flesh. She was a mother. We’ve all have and want those. The Holy Spirit’s quite obscure.

I like to meditate on one of Mary’s many titles: Masterpiece of the Holy Spirit. Mary was already ‘full of grace’ when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and Christ was conceived. She was already made immaculate by a singular gift at her conception. All of her beauty and virtues can be attributed to the actions of the Holy Spirit in her. To reflect on these is to reflect on Him. “My soul magnifies the Lord” Mary sang in her Magnificat. And so she does!

 

[simple_soul]

God does answer prayers.

And miracles do happen.

I understand this, but does that mean it was not God’s Will for this in the first place?

And there is a bible story about God NOT wiping out a city, contrary to His own original intention, if only ONE good person could be found there.

Maybe someone can find the chapter and verse.

*I do not know this bible story so if you could supply it that would be most appriciated.
I did, however, recall an audinece that his Holiness Pope Bennedict XVI gave regarding a few cities that God wanted to destroy and I thought you and others might enjoy reading it.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110518_en.html. After reading it you might understand why I am wondering about your comments. *

 

[Bezant]

I like to meditate on one of Mary’s many titles: Masterpiece of the Holy Spirit. Mary was already ‘full of grace’ when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and Christ was conceived. She was already made immaculate by a singular gift at her conception. All of her beauty and virtues can be attributed to the actions of the Holy Spirit in her. To reflect on these is to reflect on Him. “My soul magnifies the Lord” Mary sang in her Magnificat. And so she does!

Fancy that. Who came up with it? Is there a title Mary doesn’t have?

 

[RosaryFan]

Fancy that. Who came up with it? Is there a title Mary doesn’t have?

It is truly fascinating to me that in a world where we are smothered with the idolization of sports figures, movie stars, rock stars, authors and Oprah, that someone would have a problem with people honoring and trying to emulate the most perfect human being ever created by God - God’s masterpiece.

 

[prettiefly]

“Devotion to the Blessed Virgin in no way detracts from the Glory of God. Rather, it leads us directly back to that Author of all good, Who has willed her to be so great and so pure”. - Pope Pius Xll ( Reigned 1939 - 1958)

“Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the great praise we lavish on His Mother. The more Mary is honored, the greater is the glory of her Son.” - Saint Bernard of Clairvaux

And, most importantly:

“The reason why Christ is unknown today is because His Mother is unknown.” - Saint Cardinal John Henry Newman

 

[TimothyH]

*I do not know this bible story so if you could supply it that would be most appriciated. *

It is the city of Nineveh in the Book of Jonah. The book of Johan is only like three or four chapters. It is easy to read.

Jonah began his journey through the city, and when he had gone only a single day’s walk announcing, “Forty days more and Nineveh shall be overthrown,” the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast and all of them, great and small, put on sackcloth. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. Then he had this proclaimed throughout Nineveh: “By decree of the king and his nobles, no man or beast, no cattle or sheep, shall taste anything; they shall not eat, nor shall they drink water. Man and beast alike must be covered with sackcloth and call loudly to God; they all must turn from their evil way and from the violence of their hands. Who knows? God may again repent and turn from his blazing wrath, so that we will not perish.” When God saw by their actions how they turned from their evil way, he repented of the evil he had threatened to do to them; he did not carry it out.** (Jonah 3:4-10)

I think it is interesting (and completely off topic for this thread) that although it says that the people of Ninevah “Believed in God” it was “by their actions” that God’s wrath was turned away.

-Tim-

 

[Blenderx]

Fancy that. Who came up with it? Is there a title Mary doesn’t have?

I can’t find a first reference to it. I imagine it goes all the way back to the Coronation of the Virgin. God crowned her as the masterpiece of all His creation, didn’t He? It is so nice to think of all the titles given her. God is so good, isn’t He?

 

[fred_conty]

I have seen instances where Mary was “venerated” to the extent that Jesus was secondary, if at all. On the flip side, I think that younger Catholics, only using those that I have seen, may hardly give her a thought. Part of this problem comes from (another thread) the lack of TEACHING the faith during Homilies. Thank God I’ve experienced excellenty preaching/teaching.

On a side note, I have previously made a decision not to pray the Hail Mary with groups of other, almost exclusively older, Catholics. Why? I can not speed-speak the words as fast as they due and I honestly feel that there is little “prayer” going on. Just “ger-r-done”. It usually takes these groups about 15 minutes from start to finish. If you watch Mother Angelica’s Rosary broadcast, I think you see a wonderful example. Personally, I have learned the applicable verses and recite them after saying “the first …” It takes me about 30 minutes +/- to pray the Rosary.

Good points. But not everyone is alike in their concentration and absorbtion. Some are
quick and some slow and some medium. I think that 30 for you is right. But I have found
that if it is done too slow, then I have more trouble concentrating. And the same if it is
too fast.
But like you, I’ve been in a group praying the rosary, and my one thought was, “are we in
a race car that’s invisible?”

As far as Mary goes, her heart is one with the heart of her son. I don’t even give it a thought about too much to her, just as I never gave it a thought too much for my mom and not enough for my dad, or anyone else. But I find myself praying a lot to the Father.