Are conservative Catholics over-emphasizing Mary?

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garysibio said:
So you are fine with Catholics who only focus on Mary but never give Jesus a thought. You may be one of the people I see as a problem.
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How in the world did you infer that from what Luigi said? You would be better served by listening to what people say when answering your question than by your current method of choosing a firm position and asking an insincere question for the sole purpose of causing conflict for your amusement. Your responses indicate you are not genuinely seeking an answer to your original question; you came into the discussion with the only answer you will accept.
Tantum Ergo also makes an excellent point about your strawmen. If you are going to come to such a forum just to cause dissent, at least do people the courtesy of trying to apply logic, facts, and clearly-defined terms to your ‘position’ so a genuine, rational discussion can exist.
 
joshrp said:
Jesus is probably thinking “Hey, why don’t you want other people, especially my saints, to participate in your prayer life? Do you want me to focus on you all the time? Why don’t you spend some time with other people, instead of begging me for everything all the time?”
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You are kidding, right?😉
 
joshrp said:
Jesus is probably thinking “Hey, why don’t you want other people, especially my saints, to participate in your prayer life? Do you want me to focus on you all the time? Why don’t you spend some time with other people, instead of begging me for everything all the time?”
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You are kidding, right?😉
 
garysibio said:
Yes, it should, but I’m talking about those people who won’t let Mary lead them to Jesus. They seem to want to stop at Mary and never concern themselves with Jesus at all. Those Catholics who are always talking about what Mary has done but never speak a word about Jesus.
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Gary,

What these people are trying to tell you is that - it is unavoidable to Venerate the Blessed Mother and not be directed towards Jesus.

No one Venerates the Mother alone. Its impossible because the Blessed Mother won’t allow it.

Mary alway, always, always brings Jesus to the Center of our lives.
 
Gary,

with all due respect I think you’re looking for a problem where there is none. everyone I have known in my life who has focused a great deal on Mary, and in countries I have visited such as Mexico, where Mary was greatly revered, that reverence was never to the exclusion of the holy Trinity, but in addition to and as a route to the Trinity.

I am very uncomfortable with an argument that seems to be directed at finding fault with the faithful, and to argue they are less Catholic than some others might be.
 
Allegra said:
Passive? For most of us, He is the first of the Trinity that we encounter in the world. (Through the Sacrament of Baptism) He is the portion of God that becomes part of us when we recieve the Eucharist. Passive seem to me to be a funny term to describe the Holy Spirit.
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Anything but passive. At a talk I attended last week, an instructor at Paul VI Institute handed out two consecration prayers - one consecrating us to Mary, the other to the Holy Spirit. He said the latter was “dangerous” in that truly opening yourself to the Holy Spirit moves your life in ways you never thought.

Much as I’m looking forward to meeting Mary at the Feast, the Holy Spirit already keeps me company here.
 
formerlysure said:
with all due respect I think you’re looking for a problem where there is none. everyone I have known in my life who has focused a great deal on Mary, and in countries I have visited such as Mexico, where Mary was greatly revered, that reverence was never to the exclusion of the holy Trinity, but in addition to and as a route to the Trinity.
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I’m glad you’ve had that personal experience, and it very well may be that we’re concerned due to outside appearances when inwardly the focus is truly on Christ. I could compare this with an acquaintance of mine who, the first time he went to Mass, thought we were all sleeping because we were so quiet (he came from a Pentecostal church and was used to hearing “Hallelujah!” fairly often).

I would however say that I’ve seen veneration become excessive, especially where catechesis is poor or mixed with indigenous practices. Migrating workers, for example, have brought a slew of very odd venerations, including that of Santa Muerte (which is clearly not Catholic in origen, but only in form). The below link is to a blog but I remember reading this article a few years ago in the Trib:

religionnewsblog.com/21567/santa-muerte-3

So there is a legitimate concern to the spiritual well-being of Catholics to ask whether a focus that is supposed to help us become closer to Christ actually does in practice.
formerlysure said:
I am very uncomfortable with an argument that seems to be directed at finding fault with the faithful, and to argue they are less Catholic than some others might be.
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Turn it inwardly, though. I am personally very uncomfortable with veneration, and I have been since the first May Crowning I attended as a kid when a girl in the 5th grade CCD class (or PSR, for some of you) placed a wreath on the head of our parish’s statue of Mary. I think it’s viable to ask “is this a Christ-centered practice?” when we hear speakers like Fr. John Corapi (whom I really love listening to) say “if you’ve got a concern, take it to your mother”. The Catechism teaches that Christ hears our prayers, not that Mary does. Mary prays with the Church and for the Church (as all the saints do - Rev 5 and 8), and veneration must be in line with that teaching.
 
formerlysure said:
Gary,

with all due respect I think you’re looking for a problem where there is none. everyone I have known in my life who has focused a great deal on Mary, and in countries I have visited such as Mexico, where Mary was greatly revered, that reverence was never to the exclusion of the holy Trinity, but in addition to and as a route to the Trinity.

I am very uncomfortable with an argument that seems to be directed at finding fault with the faithful, and to argue they are less Catholic than some others might be.
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I did not interpret Gary’s comments to be one of trying to find fault, but one of a legitimate concern and something He was sensitive to for the Lord’s sake. I felt he was saying, in essence, “It kind of seems to me like some Catholics may be focusing more on Mary than Jesus, and this bothers me.” What is the meaning and intent of the response to him that says, “I’m uncomfortable with your feelings/perspective, Gary.” Would you rather people who feel troubled by something simply continued to be troubled? I’m just not getting the spirit of this kind of attitude. It seems uncharitable and narrow to me. As I wrote in an earlier post, I’ve heard very bizarre things regarding Mary myself; others, too have said the same things. If you’re uncomfortable, then be uncomfortable! This seems to me to be a mere tactic to subtly bully others into silence. It’s fine to say, “I don’t agree. I think there is no amount of focus given to Mary that would be too much because she makes sure Christ gets the glory.” But not everyone subscribes to that point of view.
 
Lutgardis said:
I did not interpret Gary’s comments to be one of trying to find fault, but one of a legitimate concern and something He was sensitive to for the Lord’s sake. I felt he was saying, in essence, “It kind of seems to me like some Catholics may be focusing more on Mary than Jesus, and this bothers me.” What is the meaning and intent of the response to him that says, “I’m uncomfortable with your feelings/perspective, Gary.” Would you rather people who feel troubled by something simply continued to be troubled? I’m just not getting the spirit of this kind of attitude. It seems uncharitable and narrow to me. As I wrote in an earlier post, I’ve heard very bizarre things regarding Mary myself; others, too have said the same things. If you’re uncomfortable, then be uncomfortable! This seems to me to be a mere tactic to subtly bully others into silence. It’s fine to say, “I don’t agree. I think there is no amount of focus given to Mary that would be too much because she makes sure Christ gets the glory.” But not everyone subscribes to that point of view.
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Spot on.
 
Well, interesting perspective. No disrespect or bullying silencing intended. I guess where I’m coming from is that the Blessed Mother and saints are integral to our faith, which teaches us to revere and pray to them for intercession. Some who put high value on doing so find a particular affinity, connection with Mary or Particular saints.

This is appropriate.

Some people are irreverent or selfish in their prayers, I’m sure. Some neglect the trinity and some neglect what they are meant to do in practice of our faith.

It the issue is irreverence or neglect of faith, sure that is a problem. High regard for the mother of Jesus? I think that is an odd think to focus on as problematic…if only we all were more appreciative of Mary and the saints!

No disrespect intended at all…
 
formerlysure said:
. . . I guess where I’m coming from is that the Blessed Mother and saints are integral to our faith, which teaches us to revere and pray to them for intercession. Some who put high value on doing so find a particular affinity, connection with Mary or Particular saints.

This is appropriate.

It the issue is irreverence or neglect of faith, sure that is a problem. High regard for the mother of Jesus? I think that is an odd think to focus on as problematic…if only we all were more appreciative of Mary and the saints!

No disrespect intended at all…
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Yes, Mary and the Saints are integral to our faith. No one is disputing that. No one is disputing high regard for the mother of Jesus. Latria is only to be given to God. The painstaking care the Church has taken to define what is to be given to God alone is precisely because it is possible to sin in this way, and a caution to properly express our faith in this way. If the Church says, we give dulia to Saints, hyper-dulia to Mary, but Latria we give only to God, this implies boundaries in our expression of worship. I’m having a little trouble understanding what is so complicated about realizing it is possible to exceed those boundaries; otherwise we would need not be given that enjoinment. I have only taken issue, myself, with those who have implied if others don’t feel the way they do, there is insincerity in the question, or even a purposeful kind of dissension.
 
garysibio said:
Yes, it should, but I’m talking about those people who won’t let Mary lead them to Jesus. They seem to want to stop at Mary and never concern themselves with Jesus at all. Those Catholics who are always talking about what Mary has done but never speak a word about Jesus.
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Who does this? If these people exist, let’s find them and correct them. Fortunately, I have not encountered anyone here who venerates Our Lady to the exclusion of Our Savior. I think this is rare precisely because Mary is so faithful in helping us imitate her Son. The more deeply Marian a person’s spirituality is, the more confident I am that he loves Jesus. In fact, I worry about those who treat His mother with reserved affection or even lukewarm indifference.
 
JaredR said:
Who does this? If these people exist, let’s find them and correct them. Fortunately, I have not encountered anyone here who venerates Our Lady to the exclusion of Our Savior. I think this is rare precisely because Mary is so faithful in helping us imitate her Son.
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I don’t have a list of names but they exist. (Why is it when someone says there are Catholics out there who are getting their faith wrong in an other-than-liberal direction, someone always tries to imply that person is lying? You can fall off the barque of Peter on either side.)
The more deeply Marian a person’s spirituality is, the more confident I am that he loves Jesus. In fact, I worry about those who treat His mother with reserved affection or even lukewarm indifference.
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Where is this belief found in the Bible or in the CCC?

And, by the way, you might want to reflect on Ron 14:4 “And who are you, to sit in judgement over somebody else’s servant? Whether he deserves to be upheld or to fall is for his own master to decide; and he shall be upheld, for the Lord has power to uphold him.” (NJB)

You have no business deciding how much someone loves Jesus. It’s way above your pay grade. Please butt out of my spiritual life.
 
I recently got a copy of St. Francis de Sales “Introduction to the Devout Life.” I haven’t had a chance to start studying it yet but I decided to look through the index to see what he had to say about Marian devotion. He doesn’t. Unless it was left out of the index somehow, her does not even mention Mary. He does recommend praying the rosary if done properly but says that praying a litany is just as good.

Interesting.
 
JaredR said:
Who does this? If these people exist, let’s find them and correct them. Fortunately, I have not encountered anyone here who venerates Our Lady to the exclusion of Our Savior. I think this is rare precisely because Mary is so faithful in helping us imitate her Son. The more deeply Marian a person’s spirituality is, the more confident I am that he loves Jesus. In fact, I worry about those who treat His mother with reserved affection or even lukewarm indifference.
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I saw this in another thread but it is relevant here as well. Apparently the bishops at the Second Vatican Council were concerned about excessive devotion to Mary:
  1. This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*) But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*)
22 Lk. 11:20; cf. Mt.12:28.

23 Mk. 10.45.
 
My view is informed by the trustworthy teachings of St. Louis de Montfort, St. Padre Pio, and Bl. Pope John Paul II.
 
garysibio said:
You dismissed my comment about St. Francis de Sales by saying you follow other saints/beata.
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Oh, that’s not what I meant at all. I am a lover of St. Francis de Sales as well. 🙂 I meant to show you that the eminent place of Mary in the spiritual life is not my own invention but the teaching of many holy people. My concern for people who neglect Our Lady is especially grounded in the writings of St. Louis.
 
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