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James_2_24
Guest
Andreas Hofer:
I see, thanks for the replies…
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G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Yup 
And until people excommunicate themselves by some public act, such as joining another religious body out of communion withe the CC, or, are excommunicated - they remain Catholic Christians.There is nothing to be said for being more rigorous than the teaching or discipline of the Church.
There is a complicating factor: because communion with the Church, and in the mystery of the Church, is many layered; so there is such a thing as imperfect communion. An example: the CC is in imperfect communion with the Anglican Communion.
this notion of imperfect communion is further complicated by the fact that there are many ways of being in “imperfect communion” with the Church: being in a state of mortal sin is one - but its not the same as, notr does it imply, lack of communion.
Communion is above all communion with God in Christ through the Spirit - the Church exists to bring this communion about as God’s minister of reconciliation, and to nourish and strengthen this communion in those who already enjoy some degree of it. The only people in full communion with God, are the Blessed in Heaven. For the rest of us, it’s incomplete, or weak, or not vivid - from our end, that is.
Communion with the Church is a many-sided and complex and rich reality. See Vatican II’s documents on the Church - especially the Dogmatic Constitution “Lumen Gentium.”
It goes beyond previous teaching, but would not have possible without what went before, or without the theological work of the 40 and more years before. ##
A
Antonio_B
Guest
Code:
Dissenters are in the Church but like a cancer, they continue to weaken the Body of Christ.
Antonio
D
dcdurel
Guest
Joe Kelley:
To be a member of the Church, one must believe all the Church teaches. Otherwise, even Satan could be a member, because he believes some of what the Church teaches, for example, that God exists.
Even one who accepts that authority of the Pope, in principle, but does not believe all the Church teaches cannot be a full member of the Church. For example, a person who claims to be Catholic, goes to a Catholic Church, accepts the authority of the Pope, but knowingly rejects Church teaching and believes Jesus is not God, but only a man, cannot be a full member of the Church.
In other words, public heretics are not full members of the Church. This is Church teaching.
That refers to those who believe all the Church teaches, but don’t practice what the Church teaches.
To be a member of the Church, one must believe all the Church teaches. Otherwise, even Satan could be a member, because he believes some of what the Church teaches, for example, that God exists.
Even one who accepts that authority of the Pope, in principle, but does not believe all the Church teaches cannot be a full member of the Church. For example, a person who claims to be Catholic, goes to a Catholic Church, accepts the authority of the Pope, but knowingly rejects Church teaching and believes Jesus is not God, but only a man, cannot be a full member of the Church.
In other words, public heretics are not full members of the Church. This is Church teaching.
J
Jim_ov_Cov
Guest
If you reject a dogma of the Faith you are a heetic. If you persist in heresy then you are excommunicated. If you are excommunicated then you are ‘cut off and cast out.’ So I believe that these so-called ‘dissenters’ place themselves outside of the household of the faith. It wasn’t that long ago that Catholics were forbidden to offer shelter or sustenance to certain excommunicated persons. May those happy days soon return when our love of God and His truth superceded all other considerations.
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Catholic29
Guest
Well here is the answer forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=20277 . So to cut it short, yes there is, and unfortunately there has been from the beginning.
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dcdurel
Guest
Jim ov Cov:
837. “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’” [321]
If we publically profess that abortion is good, then we are not “accepting all the means of sav lvation”, thus are not full members of the Church.
Thus, if we deny Church teahing on the serousness of abortion
we do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety, and thus are no longer full members of the Church.
I agree. The catechism states:
837. “Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’” [321]
If we publically profess that abortion is good, then we are not “accepting all the means of sav lvation”, thus are not full members of the Church.
- “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”
Thus, if we deny Church teahing on the serousness of abortion
we do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety, and thus are no longer full members of the Church.
G
Greg_McPherran
Guest
The real problem is we seem to do little to insist on standards. This is painful and damaging to the faith of others.
**1 Corinthians 5:10-13 **I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. “Purge the evil person from your midst.”
Our practice community has become so soft as to become almost like a mockery. I tell you this is a deeply serious state of affairs. We simply are not doing what Paul says to do. We are so afraid to offend anyone that we don’t stand up for anything. Look at Jesus! He upset and offended many people and they crucified Him. I love Him. He is taught me that faith is real. We seem to not want to offend Senator Kerry or Kennedy. We seem not to want to offend a non-Catholic by being too “pushy” about our faith. But Jesus told people the truth and said some if they don’t believe are condemned - period. He called people snakes!! We don’t see talk like that in His Church today though do we? I think there’s too much wimpy nonsense today. We live right in the middle of a country that is murdering unborn children every day and “Catholics” vote to continue it. Then we have little documents that “urge” people to consider voting the right way. These are Catholics!! They should already know. It’s pathetic!
I try to convince Protestants to accept the truth of our faith meanwhile in my heart I am fed up with the nonsense of our “Catholic” people. Priests are doing nothing about contraception and we call it a grave sin. I’m less happy being part of a religion that says one thing in the book but in practice it’s all a bunch of nonsense. Cast the people out! You don’t follow the Church - get out!! But we don’t do that! Then we would all be very holy and we would have high standards even if there were fewer of us. We keep the standards down and as if to keep the numbers high. This backfires because who takes a such a practice seriously (except CFC and VOTF!!)? The Church must trust God that if we purge the evil He will take care of us.
I tell you we need apostolic Catholicism! We are always telling Protestants that we are apostolic! You think the apostles would put up with VOTF or CFC!!?? We had standards. Being a Christian meant something. You think the apostles would tolerate a “brother” saying he thinks murdering children is a legal right??!!
If we are so apostolic, then let’s start acting like the apostles.
Jesus is our model. He was loving and gentle and He also cleared the temple with whips. Apparently, we only see the one side of Jesus in our Church today. I’d love to see a Bishop make a whip out of cords and drive a priest out teaching that contraception is OK (or harming a child, or VOTF, or CFC). That priest is just a sneak who doesn’t even belong. Yet there are so many like that today. Whatever happened to the fire of truth and life in our religion?
Next, I might tell you what I really think.
Am I wrong?
**1 Corinthians 5:13 **“Purge the evil person from your midst.”
That’s not a suggestion. That is the Word of God that we are required to obey!
Greg
**1 Corinthians 5:10-13 **I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. “Purge the evil person from your midst.”
Our practice community has become so soft as to become almost like a mockery. I tell you this is a deeply serious state of affairs. We simply are not doing what Paul says to do. We are so afraid to offend anyone that we don’t stand up for anything. Look at Jesus! He upset and offended many people and they crucified Him. I love Him. He is taught me that faith is real. We seem to not want to offend Senator Kerry or Kennedy. We seem not to want to offend a non-Catholic by being too “pushy” about our faith. But Jesus told people the truth and said some if they don’t believe are condemned - period. He called people snakes!! We don’t see talk like that in His Church today though do we? I think there’s too much wimpy nonsense today. We live right in the middle of a country that is murdering unborn children every day and “Catholics” vote to continue it. Then we have little documents that “urge” people to consider voting the right way. These are Catholics!! They should already know. It’s pathetic!
I try to convince Protestants to accept the truth of our faith meanwhile in my heart I am fed up with the nonsense of our “Catholic” people. Priests are doing nothing about contraception and we call it a grave sin. I’m less happy being part of a religion that says one thing in the book but in practice it’s all a bunch of nonsense. Cast the people out! You don’t follow the Church - get out!! But we don’t do that! Then we would all be very holy and we would have high standards even if there were fewer of us. We keep the standards down and as if to keep the numbers high. This backfires because who takes a such a practice seriously (except CFC and VOTF!!)? The Church must trust God that if we purge the evil He will take care of us.
I tell you we need apostolic Catholicism! We are always telling Protestants that we are apostolic! You think the apostles would put up with VOTF or CFC!!?? We had standards. Being a Christian meant something. You think the apostles would tolerate a “brother” saying he thinks murdering children is a legal right??!!
If we are so apostolic, then let’s start acting like the apostles.
Jesus is our model. He was loving and gentle and He also cleared the temple with whips. Apparently, we only see the one side of Jesus in our Church today. I’d love to see a Bishop make a whip out of cords and drive a priest out teaching that contraception is OK (or harming a child, or VOTF, or CFC). That priest is just a sneak who doesn’t even belong. Yet there are so many like that today. Whatever happened to the fire of truth and life in our religion?
Next, I might tell you what I really think.
Am I wrong?
**1 Corinthians 5:13 **“Purge the evil person from your midst.”
That’s not a suggestion. That is the Word of God that we are required to obey!
Greg
G
Greg_McPherran
Guest
Well here’s a link to St. Joan of Arc Catholic Church: stjoan.com Also there is a link to the homosexual are there.
In fact, at mass this morning in Massachusetts the prayers included one not to discriminate based on sexual orientation. My daughter and I were a bit surprised and not sure what they meant. I chose this parish because it seemed more faithful to the Magisterium than my local Church so but I am going to look out a bit for other such signs of problems.
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
Pro-aborts on the Bishop’s Review Board for Child Protection???!!! Child Protection by the Catholic Church???!!!
catholic.net/us_catholic_news/template_channel.phtml?channel_id=1
lifesite.net/ldn/2004/oct/04100611.html
Donated to Kerry Campaign. :bigyikes:
Matthew 12:25 "Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and no town or house divided against itself will stand…
This is Carol McKinley in Massachusetts. Like me, she is unhappy with what is going on today.
carolmckinley.blogspot.com/
Folks, I can almost understand Protestantism (not their theology or morals). How much are Catholics expected to take!!!
catholic.net/us_catholic_news/template_channel.phtml?channel_id=1
lifesite.net/ldn/2004/oct/04100611.html
Donated to Kerry Campaign. :bigyikes:
Matthew 12:25 "Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and no town or house divided against itself will stand…
This is Carol McKinley in Massachusetts. Like me, she is unhappy with what is going on today.
carolmckinley.blogspot.com/
Folks, I can almost understand Protestantism (not their theology or morals). How much are Catholics expected to take!!!
G
Greg_McPherran
Guest
It seems like since the Church holds the sacraments, Catholics have no choice if they are dissatisfied. This fact that we can only receive the sacraments at the Catholic Church seems to mean that one would have to tolerate all sorts of abuses of power and have no choice if one wanted to leave. 
What if a Catholic really liked the idea of not being burdened with this organizational failure to hold to standards. However, if they do not wish to leave Jesus in the Sacraments, what options are there?
I see Catholic theology and morals but I must admit I am attracted to the idea of a Christian community that is not trapped under leadership that seems psychologically and spiritually harmful. There seems to be no mechanisms or motivation for accountability outside the hierarchy and morals.
Did God intend to establish a Church such that if the leadership does not work well, you have no other options? Is this Christianity?
Greg
What if a Catholic really liked the idea of not being burdened with this organizational failure to hold to standards. However, if they do not wish to leave Jesus in the Sacraments, what options are there?
I see Catholic theology and morals but I must admit I am attracted to the idea of a Christian community that is not trapped under leadership that seems psychologically and spiritually harmful. There seems to be no mechanisms or motivation for accountability outside the hierarchy and morals.
Did God intend to establish a Church such that if the leadership does not work well, you have no other options? Is this Christianity?
Greg
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
I think the Pope has instructed those responsible to nip dissent in the bud at the seminary level.
We are all sinners in need of God’s mercy. It is diffcult when there is misteaching due to dissent.
We are all sinners in need of God’s mercy. It is diffcult when there is misteaching due to dissent.
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Annunciata
Guest
Some of my ‘best friends’ are dissenters in the Catholic Church
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des_scahill
Guest
It looks like there’s always going to be ‘dissent’ for one reason or another, the parable of the wheat and the tares Matthew 13: 24-30 makes that pretty clear ( its meaning is explained in Matthew 13: 36-43 ).
It seems to me though, that there can be justifiable reasons for holding a different views at times on minor points of theology - with varying degrees of legitimacy of course - where scripture is silent or obscure on a matter. Water baptism of adult converts is one example - what matters is the public testimony of heartfelt faith before witnesses - thats the ‘substance’ of the act, not the ‘mechanics ie,. how much water is used’ .
Just for the record - I was baptised by full immersion in a Baptist church myself - but I certainly don’t see that I have any justification at all to accuse some-one who was baptised in a different procedure as being a ‘dissenter’ and therefore ‘non-christian’ because they don’t ‘agree’ with me on the mechanics of how baptism is carried out…
It seems to me though, that there can be justifiable reasons for holding a different views at times on minor points of theology - with varying degrees of legitimacy of course - where scripture is silent or obscure on a matter. Water baptism of adult converts is one example - what matters is the public testimony of heartfelt faith before witnesses - thats the ‘substance’ of the act, not the ‘mechanics ie,. how much water is used’ .
Just for the record - I was baptised by full immersion in a Baptist church myself - but I certainly don’t see that I have any justification at all to accuse some-one who was baptised in a different procedure as being a ‘dissenter’ and therefore ‘non-christian’ because they don’t ‘agree’ with me on the mechanics of how baptism is carried out…
T
Teflon93
Guest
Encouraging disobedience against the teaching of the Church is the sin of scandal.
D
dessert
Guest
Does this mean that the dissenters end up on a list in the bishops office or does a priest have to put in a legal complaint?
T
Teflon93
Guest
From the Catechism:
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Coder
Guest
Hi, I think you are misapplying this scripture. See 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians5.htm
M
Mimi
Guest
What I want to know is, if a priest knows for certain a parishioner is an active member of say, Call to Action, and after counseling that person to quite the group and repent, but this person does not – then when this person presents himself for Communion is the priest obligated to deny him?
I think I asked this on the Ask an Apologist forum but no answer as yet to my knowledge.
Also, what about if the person sees no need to repent or the priest does know of the activity and does not help the person to repent or at least see that belonging to a dissenting group harms the Body of Christ?
Probably no one can give a complete answer. I just pray for these people to see the light before they pass on. It used to make me upset to know fellow parishioners are in Call to Action, now I’m just sad for them.
God bless,
Mimi
I think I asked this on the Ask an Apologist forum but no answer as yet to my knowledge.
Also, what about if the person sees no need to repent or the priest does know of the activity and does not help the person to repent or at least see that belonging to a dissenting group harms the Body of Christ?
Probably no one can give a complete answer. I just pray for these people to see the light before they pass on. It used to make me upset to know fellow parishioners are in Call to Action, now I’m just sad for them.
God bless,
Mimi
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Or it might mean that there are bonds other than belief - which is true.
Those who want absolute & total agreement in doctrine between all Catholics are not going to find it, because none of us is a replica of anyone else. Mao’s China or Pol Pol Pot’s Cambodia valued uniformity highly - which more or less speaks for itself.As for dividing Catholics into (so-called) “true” & whatever: this is self-righteous, & makes divisions where none should be; it is certainly not something for us to do. If anyone is to be cast out of the Church, as some seem to desire, that is not for the laity to do, but for bishops - & for them alone. Those who call for others to be cast out would be far better occupied in praying for them.
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