Are dissenting Catholic views based on reason or emotion?

[Thoughtful]

You’ve forgotten that our soul includes intellect, emotion and will.

It’s all about authority and submission.

They can attempt to rationalize and justify themselves all they want using either reason or emotion, but it comes down to the will.

Choosing to submit or dissent is an act of the will.

Thanks Randy. You bring up a very good point.

 

[dessert]

Some Catholics are still receiving the milk of the teaching with emotional feelings and have a hard time digestioning the meat of the teaching and learning how to reason it out. If I dissent it is because of my will or I am not ready but will have to eventually see the truth. dessert

 

[Thoughtful]

That’s like asking whether people in the USA are intelligent or stupid - it’s impossible to generalise Some people are intelligent about some things, and stupid in other respects - some are intelligent overall, or stupid overall.##​

I’m not talking about cognitive functioning.

If OTOH the question is asked,“Are there good reasons for disagreeing with those things ?”; certainly there can be. There can also be bad reasons to disagree: just as there can good and bad reasons for any POV.​

But what makes a reason good or bad?

BTW, there is nothing wrong with emotion - people are not robots (& thank goodness for that). Emotion is a bad thing for one’s beliefs when it stops them being intelligently held - not when it does not get in the way of intelligence. There’s nothing to be said for being too purely intellectual either - it’s as much a mistake as being too emotional: human beings are meant to be neither alone, but both together. That’s why “the heart has its reasons”, as truly as the intellect does. Which is why a purely intellectual apologetic is incomplete - it appeals to only one side of human nature. ##

As I mentioned earlier, I believe that"emotion" and “reasoning” play different roles. Emotion motivates us and reasoning is what convinces us to act (or use our free will). If there is a lack of reasoning, then our action, words, beliefs can be faulty, however, many people argue a point because they “feel” it is the right one.

I have to admit that many people who dissent from a Catholic teaching (I’m talking the big ones…same-sex marriage, abortion, etc.), in my mind have failed to convince me that their position is right. (I only refer this to those who consider themselves Catholic). And if there is no right or wrong, then why not join our relativistic society and ditch the name Catholic.

As jmcrae stated, his relative asked " Would you still think homosexuality was a sin if your brother were a homosexual? Could you possibly think that your brother was a sinner?" She was perfectly serious." This is often the “type” of argument one gets. It has been my experience.

I am not saying emotion is a bad thing, I’m just saying that if you (not personally) consider yourself “Catholic” and object to what the Church teaches, then all I’m asking is be prepared to give evidence, sources, etc. to back up the fact that you (again not personally) are right and that it is perfectly okay to be obstinant in that belief.

And, just to be clear, I am NOT talking about those who call themselves Catholic and *admitedly *struggle, or are ignorant, or are still searching to understand the truth.

 

[anamchara]

And sometimes people have a conversion of the heart and are not so big on dissenting as they once were

I feel more Catholic now then I did when I converted. I know that sounds bad but for some of us it takes longer to submit to the will of the Church and have faith that it’s God’s plan guiding the Church. Our priest just last night said something that struck a chord with me. He said we need the rules in the Church, the rules are compassion! I’ve been reflecting on that. It’s about Gods love.

It’s emotion and reason that we use to make decisions. It all has to do with how we are raised and who helped form our conscience.

Just my two pennies

 

[Thoughtful]

I’m not sure that applies to everyone - maybe it depends on your personality, rather than your theological stance? .

I think that can be somewhat true. A lot of things play a role into how we look at the world…temperament, past experiences, etc.

I’m an INFP on Myers Briggs, which means I operate a lot on intuition and perception. However, I have a very strong academic background, so I also am well used to reason. My going over to attempt to comfort a stranger who’s crying has less to do with reason (I can reason out the chance they’ll tell me to get lost) than it has to do with the emotion (compassion)…

Emotion is what motivates you, but let’s say that there were family around or some other mitigating factor, you would (I think) subconsciously use reasoning.

Where I think this comes into play with being a follower of Jesus, is often we are asked to act outside our emotion…forgiveness, charity, etc. We are called to act, believe, stand up for…even when it is tough, when the world will make it difficult for you, when you don’t feel like it, when it means taking an unpopular stand. It’s easy to do something when we feel like it, it’s easier to believe something if it’s popular.

I left the Catholic church 7 years ago. I have been working in a Protestant church since. I am considering returning, because of my belief in Eucharist, but am hesitating because it means it is virtually impossible to continue in my vocation (full time ministry, as a woman, not called to religous orders) and the stance of papal infallibility. .

He is waiting for you!

Again and again I hear the argument here that anyone who disagrees with the Catholic church position is guilty of arrogance and placing themselves above God. That is the opposite of my experience. Many times it would be easier, and less painful, to unquestioningly accept the CC’s teaching. Listening to the voice of God, and allowing yourself to be niggled into action by it, has a huge cost - and, for me, has had more to do with an attempt to be faithful to God, than it has to do with making my own life more comfortable…

I can see your point, wanting to be Catholic and disagreeing with some of its’ teachings can be difficult. Please don’t give up.

 

[Penitant]

I think it is often those things, but ultimately, it is almost always rooted in the most insidious of sins: pride.

 

[Eddy]

They can attempt to rationalize and justify themselves all they want using either reason or emotion, but it comes down to the will.

Choosing to submit or dissent is an act of the will.

Yes, but when will you commit your will? I’ve been in various situations where I’ve submitted to authority by an act of will - even though I may disagree with some of the decisions being made. But that will is informed by how I view that authority - whether I choose to give it authority - and that decision is informed by reason and emotion! It is highly irresponsible to allow someone a position of authority over you if you are not convinced of their right to that authority - sinful even.

Some Catholics are still receiving the milk of the teaching with emotional feelings and have a hard time digestioning the meat of the teaching and learning how to reason it out. If I dissent it is because of my will or I am not ready but will have to eventually see the truth. dessert

This implies that reason and intellect are more important, and are to be placed above, emotion. I’m not sure I stand by that. I know many a well educated, reasoned person who can argue theology brilliantly - but there’s no emotional engagement. Is it really Christianity if you love the concept or idea of God, or a particular form of worship or teaching, but are not in love with Jesus?

Where I think this comes into play with being a follower of Jesus, is often we are asked to act outside our emotion…forgiveness, charity, etc. We are called to act, believe, stand up for…even when it is tough, when the world will make it difficult for you, when you don’t feel like it, when it means taking an unpopular stand. It’s easy to do something when we feel like it, it’s easier to believe something if it’s popular.

I agree with you. But isn’t the purpose of our faith to become more like Jesus? To be transformed in our hearts and minds to feel and see as He sees? So, inevitably, it will be difficult sometimes, but the more we grow into God we learn to show compassion, forgiveness, charity, because these are our emotional responses borne out of love for people - not out of reason. It is a grim faith that shows concern for people only because they ‘should’ rather than because they are being transformed by love. It is the relationship then, that causes you to behave a particular way, rather than reason alone.

I think it is often those things, but ultimately, it is almost always rooted in the most insidious of sins: pride.

Like I said before ‘Again and again I hear the argument here that anyone who disagrees with the Catholic church position is guilty of arrogance and placing themselves above God. That is the opposite of my experience. Many times it would be easier, and less painful, to unquestioningly accept the CC’s teaching. Listening to the voice of God, and allowing yourself to be niggled into action by it, has a huge cost - and, for me, has had more to do with an attempt to be faithful to God, than it has to do with making my own life more comfortable…’

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Like I said before ‘Again and again I hear the argument here that anyone who disagrees with the Catholic church position is guilty of arrogance and placing themselves above God. That is the opposite of my experience. Many times it would be easier, and less painful, to unquestioningly accept the CC’s teaching. Listening to the voice of God, and allowing yourself to be niggled into action by it, has a huge cost - and, for me, has had more to do with an attempt to be faithful to God, than it has to do with making my own life more comfortable…’

Humans are social animals. Normally we don’t like to disagree with our particular social group; be that workmates, political associates, or the other people at church.
So simply joining the Church and doing what everyone else does can be a cop-out. The great man will not do this.
However if your important social group happens to be at your place of work, and Catholics are just secondary, then you are simply making the same error with a different group of people.

For instance, if one of your dissenting opinions is that “homosexual behaviour should not be viewed as sinful”, that pretty obviously comes from the surrounding society. It is most unlikely to be an opinion you genuinely hold as a result of rational, independent thought.

Unfortunately that doesn’t tell us whether the Church is right or the surrounding society is right.

 

[Thoughtful]

Sitting with my relationship with Jesus. I try to spend as much time with Jesus as possible.

Hi Eddy,

I forgot to ask you, have you ever spent time at Eucharistic Adoration?

 

[Thoughtful]

And sometimes people have a conversion of the heart and are not so big on dissenting as they once were

I know, I have met many.

 

[Thoughtful]

But that will is informed by how I view that authority - whether I choose to give it authority - and that decision is informed by reason and emotion! It is highly irresponsible to allow someone a position of authority over you if you are not convinced of their right to that authority - sinful even.

Does this colour your view of papal infallibilty (as noted in a previous post)?

This implies that reason and intellect are more important, and are to be placed above, emotion. I’m not sure I stand by that. I know many a well educated, reasoned person who can argue theology brilliantly - but there’s no emotional engagement. Is it really Christianity if you love the concept or idea of God, or a particular form of worship or teaching, but are not in love with Jesus?

Not necessarily more important. Emotions are very important, it’s what motivates us. But emotions can be all over the place and are influenced by our past experiences, our temperament, our walls, our insecurities, our struggles, etc.

Some people are more emotional or more demonstrative of their emotions. How “little” one demonstrates love (to our mind) shouldn’t mean that they love less. In fact, people show love in different ways (“The Five Love Languages”)

So, inevitably, it will be difficult sometimes, but the more we grow into God we learn to show compassion, forgiveness, charity, because these are our emotional responses borne out of love for people - not out of reason. It is a grim faith that shows concern for people only because they ‘should’ rather than because they are being transformed by love. It is the relationship then, that causes you to behave a particular way, rather than reason alone.

I agree that our love for God is demonstrated in our compassion, forgiveness, charity, etc., even more so when we don’t feel like it. I think it is a strong faith that encourages us to reach beyond ourselves and do what we should rather than what we want because we feel like it.

Whenever I share with my spiritual director about how I feel about something (anger, fear, hopelessness) he always draws me back to the messages of Jesus in the Bible. Jesus asks me to walk on that narrow road and often times I don’t want to…I’m afraid, I’m too tired, I don’t want to risk it. It is my emotions that interfere with His message. I think that is why many Catholics dissent from Catholic teaching.

Like I said before 'Again and again I hear the argument here that anyone who disagrees with the Catholic church position is guilty of arrogance and placing themselves above God. ’

Pride. How does one know if they are being prideful? I think that is an important question to ask. I also think it is very important to see who or what is helping you hear the voice of God. If good sound resources aren’t used, then we can get misled.

 

[Thoughtful]

For instance, if one of your dissenting opinions is that “homosexual behaviour should not be viewed as sinful”, that pretty obviously comes from the surrounding society. It is most unlikely to be an opinion you genuinely hold as a result of rational, independent thought.

I think this is why many call themselves Catholic and yet dissent from one or more Catholic teachings. They are very immersed in our culture and get either confused or seriously pulled…which way do I go? You see this in their arguments - they really don’t have any sound reasoning but is often flavoured by "this is the way it should be because this is the way I (or society) thinks it should be…{insert emotional reasoning here}.

 

[Gertabelle]

I’m a “revert” to the faith. Just came back last summer after 14 (?) years away. During that time I was really a dissenting, non-practicing Catholic! But I digress.

Since my return, I have made the commitment to be a Catholic who does what the Church tells her to do. In other words, I’m living the teachings of the Church.

Except, perhaps, in one area. I am a social liberal to the extreme (e.g., I think we should abolish all borders as a way of dealing with immigration problems.). I will not be specific about the area with which I cannot follow the teachings of Mother Church (that would be a topic for another thread). But I simply cannot go against my conscience on this matter.

There are other areas of Church teaching that I find difficult, inconvenient at times, or where my faith seems completely lacking. Yet even in those areas, I follow the Church. But in this one area, to follow the Church would be unthinkable.

Is that one area of dissent based on emotion, reason, pride, ignorance…? I don’t know. I only know that I dissent, and I also must accept that I am not in integrity with my Church in this. Now that I think about it, I will definitely speak with one of our priests or deacons about this. My parish, thank you God, is very traditional and conservative.

Great question. Sorry I didn’t have an answer.

Gert

 

[Thoughtful]

Is that one area of dissent based on emotion, reason, pride, ignorance…? I don’t know. I only know that I dissent, and I also must accept that I am not in integrity with my Church in this. Now that I think about it, I will definitely speak with one of our priests or deacons about this. My parish, thank you God, is very traditional and conservative.

Great question. Sorry I didn’t have an answer.

Gert

Thank you Gert for your honesty. May God Bless you and give you strength!

 

[jmcrae]

Emotion is what motivates you, but let’s say that there were family around or some other mitigating factor, you would (I think) subconsciously use reasoning.

How does one subconsciously use reasoning? I see this as a contradiction in terms.

 

[Thoughtful]

How does one subconsciously use reasoning? I see this as a contradiction in terms.

You’re probably right

What I meant to say, is that - for instance - if you see that someone needs something (compassion, help, etc.) and you want to help, you would decide/reason , for example, if your timing was good, if they had enough (or more than enough) help, etc. …that you would assess the situation and decide if you would be a help or a hindrance. We often assess these situations without going through a conscious process that justifies our actions. But is that really reasoning…hmmmmm

 

[dessert]

A dissenting thing going on in our church, but I am now going to go to a different one just because of the friction this dissent has caused. We have missals and they are not cheap. They are at every pew next to the hymnals. The main woman behind us never ever geting rid of these if we do we are communists is a very emotional person. If we get rid of them I think she would have a nervous breakdown. This is tradition to her and she reasons that people will not pay attention to the word as much as when they see it in their hands, example the psalms etc. She is definately ruling the roost with her emotion because the reasoning isn’t logical as many don’t look at the missal we have it all memorized. If we always do things a certain way is reasoning then her way or no way. There is maybe a little dementia going on here or just plain control because other things are being sacrificed such as keeping warm but we must have these books in our gloved hands. Make any sense? There is alot more involved in the church problems but when talking with elders you sometimes can’t reason. dessert

 

[jmcrae]

Dissent is when you actually break the rules.

There’s no rule either way about reading along in the missal, or not. This is more like Pharasaism, which is where someone is making a rule where no rule exists, and trying to make everyone follow their rule, instead of letting people do whatever they want, as the Church allows.

 

[Eddy]

Does this colour your view of papal infallibilty (as noted in a previous post)? .

Absolutely. I believe very strongly that God has primary authority. And if I earnestly believe that God’s authority and the Church’s authority don’t match, then my obedience is to God. Of course, traditional Catholicism will say that contradiction isn’t possible - I’m not convinced of that - yet. And of course I’m willing to defer on the minor issues - I’ve even deferred on some pretty major issues in the past, but I need to be convinced. Some might call that pride, I call it responsibility!

Some people are more emotional or more demonstrative of their emotions. How “little” one demonstrates love (to our mind) shouldn’t mean that they love less. In fact, people show love in different ways (“The Five Love Languages”) .

I agree. My parents’ generation are not demonstrative at all, but it doesn’t mean they don’t love. But often, I find, what people really love is shown in various ways - for example what gets them angry. And I’ve known people to get terribly angry on some fairly academic issue of doctrine than the homeless person sitting outside the church while they’re getting angry. I’m reminded of the Bob Geldof comment, which I can’t remember exactly, but along the lines of 'I think it’s a f**** disgrace that a child is dying every six seconds of hunger. And that you’re more upset that I just said f*** than that those children are dying’. He had a point (not that I’m excusing the language!). What you love will be shown in your life, whether you’re emotionally demonstrative or not.

I agree that our love for God is demonstrated in our compassion, forgiveness, charity, etc., even more so when we don’t feel like it. I think it is a strong faith that encourages us to reach beyond ourselves and do what we should rather than what we want because we feel like it. .

I agree. But in a sense, don’t we choose what we most deeply desire (I’m getting back to Ignatian spirituality again!). We may desire an easy life, we may desire comfort, but what we desire *even more deeply *is union with God - is to be a disciple. We always, in a sense, choose what we desire, even if we don’t ‘feel like it’ - because the short-term difficulty is bringing us to a longer-term desire.

Pride. How does one know if they are being prideful? I think that is an important question to ask. I also think it is very important to see who or what is helping you hear the voice of God. If good sound resources aren’t used, then we can get misled.

Again, I totally agree. I’d be very suspicious of anyone proclaiming ‘this is the voice of God’, outside of a discerning community. I’m a firm believer in the importance of aligning your views with scripture, in having good spiritual direction, and in being part of a worshipping faith community. Trust me, more than once one of those three sources has knocked me off my little throne

And yes, I’ve done Eucharistic Adoration. Lots and lots. You’d be surprised just how Catholic a non-Catholic I am! I’m at Mass more often than the majority of my Catholic friends!

 

[dessert]

Dissent is when you actually break the rules.

There’s no rule either way about reading along in the missal, or not. This is more like Pharasaism, which is where someone is making a rule where no rule exists, and trying to make everyone follow their rule, instead of letting people do whatever they want, as the Church allows.

Yes I see your definition is true about rules but one reason I left was a person was standing there telling me I HAD to pick up the missal and follow along. This person has a hard time accepting any changes in her life. dessert