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Spirithound
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Indeed, as i recall, Jesus talks more about the tongue than anything else, aside from heaven and hell.
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JButky
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And that does not change it’s status as a music instrument either as an electric guitar would also be. Both are physical with measurable acoustic properties. The voice simply has some unique properties. Without delving into the heavier philosophical and physical properties of instruments (including communication, emotion, and specific physical acoustical properties, etc) it is not a feasible tenant to claim that voice is somehow “apart” from the family of musical instruments for purposes of this discussion. Instrument acousticians always include the voice to describe it’s physical properties towards the production of music. To that end the voice is no different that any other physical instrument.
Understood, but the point of discussion is application of musical instruments, and Eastern Rite does point us to some specific examples as well. One can easily place the voice in this discussion as well since it is indeed a physical instrument. It is also because of that fact that it has a most important bearing on the discussion at hand.
What we learn from the Eastern Rite is that limiting musical instruments to a single variety…voice… has in effect, preserved the Eastern rite from many abuses. It was also a good choice because of the versatility of the instrument. That also has meant that it’s function has been one that consists more of preservation of form than evolution of for (simply due to the constraints of vocal techniques only.) The Latin Rite has allowed many more influences because there has been many instruments available. That has resulted in evolution of form of everything from very good and very bad on a far larger scale.
Because of that, we have the discussion we are now having. Point being…electric guitars and drums. The differences here are that the voice is a more universal instrument, much like the general category of guitar. Saying the specific form of electric guitar is appropriate for Liturgy is like saying that specific vocal instrument functions of rap or sprechstimme would be OK for the Eastern Rite…
Obviously this is not the case. This is something we learn from the Eastern Rite but ONLY if you recognize the voice as a musical instrument and understand it’s place and functions.
Obviously, I hope you understand now. And yes, I did argue the point.
Joe B
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Michael_Welter
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I can’t believe this discussion descended into an argument over whether or not the human voic is a musical instrument. I have two degrees in music, and believe me, the human voice is never included in the category called “Musical Instruments”. Even the Catholic Church does not include the human voice when referring to musical instruments. For example, this is from the GIRM:
Clearly, the Church does not refer to the human voice as a musical instrument. So let’s stick to the original question of the appropriateness of drums and electric guitars at Mass.
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JButky
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Clearly the Church accepts without question that the voice is a musical instrument. She doesn’t need to emphasize the point. As my previous explanation explained, it’s other instruments that need to be examined for appropriateness and the Church then specifies usage. Specifically, the Church even references Cantors, who use theire voice as a musical instrument in a specific function.
Let’s not kid ourselves, voice is the ultimate instrument. All other instruments attempt to copy it. As an instrument, acousticians examine it’s properties with other instruments, music schools teach it, and indeed even make you indicate your “instrument” as voice.
There is no question from any authority to deny that the voice is an instrument. But you are right, the question here is appropriateness of two particular types of other instruments. The nature of the voice as an instrument in the Church is a given, which is why chant is at the root of Catholicism’s musical heritage. It is not uniquely human either as Scripture evidences “choirs of angels” with whom we join or voices in the liturgy.
Perhaps this explains the reason why Chant is so important to our heritage. And that is because the musical form is most perfectly realized by the human voice in the form of an instrument. Logically, organ then follows because it also is unique in it’s ability to be a quasi orchestra under an organist’s control. It is rightful referred to as the “King of Instruments” and therefore aptly suited to sustain the singing (or voice). In this way the Church indicates that the voice is a superior instrument to even the king of instruments, namely the organ.
In all these matters, it is quite clear from Church teaching that the voice is the most important instrument in use for the Church. Organ follows second, and all other instruments must be able to follow that function if they are able.
Joe B
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Michael_Welter
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OK, assuming for the moment that you are right, and trying to tie this back to the original question, is the human voice always appropriate for leading music at Mass? Should Ozzy Osbourne be permitted to sing his songs at Mass? Of course not. Again, it’s not the “instrument” that is either right or wrong, but how it is “played”.
That’s debatable. You’d have a hard time convincing me that the guitar, or piano, was invented in an attempt to copy the human voice.
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JButky
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Michael,
I already explained this in a previous post #1874076 where the OP acknowledges I explained his point precisely. There is a difference between a general classification of an instrument and it’s specfic types or applications of usage. I also particularly mentioned that voice, because of it’s versatility has many techniques, some of which would not be appropriate for liturgy (i.e. sprechstimme to ByzCath or your own example here of Ozzy)
Incidently the Ozzy example provides two different situations. One of vocal quality, the other of musical appropriatness. The first may be relevant to our discussion, (i.e. particular application of an instrument), the latter has nothing to do with instrumentation, rather musical appropriateness.
The most glaring example, which I’m surprised you’ve missed is note bending on guitar which has it’s very roots in attempting to emulate the singing style of the blues.
The piano is tougher granted, until you look into extended techniques developed for piano in the avante garde arena, where there are at least two techniques that make the attempt to make a piano emulate vocal qualities.
Joe B
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Michael_Welter
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Both your examples are the exception, not the norm, for playing those instruments. You still have not shown that these instruments, or any other instrument, was developed to emulate the human voice.
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JButky
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I never claimed that instruments were “developed” to emulate the human voice. That’s a completely different discussion and one that I wouldn’t accept anyway, (obviously). However, the exceptions noted sufficiently demonstrate my point as well. The only point I made in this sidetrack was that instruments can and do attempt to imitate the human voice. That point is quite clear. And that point is the reason we have discussions as to appropriateness of other instruments for liturgy. There is a larger philosophical line of reasoning to be considered.
I don’t know why that fact is such a point of contention in this discussion that it is causing you to go off topic. To avoid redundancy, just read the prevoius points to see the correlation of this minor point to the major topic.
Joe B
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pnewton
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And a hundred years ago a piano would not have been permitted. Disciplines like this can and do change. The latest document on the subject did not mention any instrument by name, thus allowing the principles embodied to change with the time and culture.
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Chris-WA
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If this is so, I’ve never heard it. 99% of the time they are played in a rock-and-roll style, which is never appropriate for the sacred liturgy. People who like that style of music at mass are more interested in being entertained, which is not why we are there.
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Chris-WA
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Actually no. Just because he was there doesn’t mean he had anything to do with how that particular parish chooses to do its music. Bishops are not likely to come in and lord over their power to change such things either.
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Spirithound
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If the bishop won’t use his authority to set things right, how are we supposed to learn? Or become closer with Christ?
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Chris-WA
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Bishops often have bigger fish to fry than liturgical music problems. Given the ongoing legal nightmare in the wake of the sexual abuse scandal, I would say music is one of the least of their worries right now. The USCCB just finished a conference in recent weeks and discussed, among many issues, problems with liturgical music in the U.S. I don’t think they are expected to create any sweeping new policies on the subject though.
As to becoming closer to Christ, that has little to do with whether or not bishops “set things right.”
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AnnieD
Guest
At Mass this evening, we had music, using a piano, tamborines and sticks clacking together. During the homily, the Priest stood on his head. I don’t feel like I went to Mass. It felt more like a circus.
Annie
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Spirithound
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So, the music/instruments have no effect on our relationship with Jesus then? Why are we debating this topic?
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Chris-WA
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We are debating this topic out of respect and reverence for the mass, and ultimately for Jesus Christ. I contend that using secular-styled music during the sacred liturgy cheapens our appreciation for the sacred, and sometimes is downright disrespectful. That is why I specifically focussed on electric guitars and drum sets, because 99 times out of 100 they are played in a rock-and-roll style, which is irreverent and therefore inappropriate for the mass. It’s not just personal taste here. If anyone wants to make a case that rock-and-roll is appropriate for the mass, bring it on. The Church disagrees with that notion. It’s also just plain common sense.
So why does it go on, often uncontested? The answer is simple–apathy and ignorance. Because most of today’s adult Catholics were never grounded in the faith with good catechesis, by and large we have lost an appreciation for the difference between sacred things and normal every day things. The result is that we try to make the mass more like our every day lives, instead of the other way around. I think we can do better.
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Michael_Welter
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In all of my years doing music at Mass, often with drums and electric guitars, I have never heard rock-n-roll style music at Mass. The Mass that I attend at my parish has contemporary praise & worhip music, not rock-n-roll. I find that this style of music deepens the worship experience for me. Don’t get me wrong. I think Gregorian Chant is beautiful, but I cannot participate in it. For me, Gregorian Chant during Mass would be pure entertainment. Does that make it wrong to use at Mass? Of course not. It just doesn’t work for me. Contemporary praise & worship music does. Thank God we have a Church that is big enough to meet the needs of a diverse humanity.
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Chris-WA
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Most contemporary praise & worship music is done in a soft-rock style. It has a soft-rock drum beat and soft-rock electric guitar music. It’s great for listening to in the car or at home. It’s lousy for the mass, and it looks silly in church. Listening to a drummer bang away during the Eucharist is completely distracting and inappropriate as well. “Contemporary praise and worship” is simply another term for religious soft rock. It just doesn’t fit with the holy sacrifice of the mass. It’s another example of how we’ve cheapened the whole experience.
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Michael_Welter
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I respect your opinion, and also notice that you’ve changed from rock-n-roll to soft rock. However, if you feel that contemporary praise and worship music is not appropriate for Mass, then I pray there will always be a Mass available to you with the music that you prefer. I also pray that you not try to impose your preferrence on the rest of the Church.
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JButky
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This is a different discussion. We are not talking preference per se, but how certain instruments lend themselves to particular genres. We are now equating style preference with instruments. It is true that some instruments seem to be used in particular genres to the exclusion of others and that appears to be the case here (Electric guitar and Drum Sets specifically for purposes of this discussion). The question is whether or not these particular instruments CAN be used for worship. The obvious answer, purely as an instrument…YES…However, stylistically they are pretty much applied to particular genres which don’t really resonate with Church teachings on the matter.
It is not imposing a preference to pursue liturgical music and application of instruments in the manner the Church attempts to guide us into. The Church teaches they can be used IF, they can be made appropriate. It is also true that there are musical forms that obviously suit this purpose more than others. Ones that are far off from being suited to the task have a more difficult time for justification of usage, especially those whose main purpose is from other sources designed for a different purpose where they dominate particular genres. (Rock, Jazz, Polkas…where’s that accordian at Mass).
Now, if electric guitars can begin to approach and enter into the mindset that the Church offers for liturgical music, they could be allowed. In that sense, particular musical styles are also more appropriate for liturgical usage (as the Church teaches). The player through their instrument must struggle to engage in that mindset however. They should not just engage in providing a style that suits particular instruments and then say they are therefore OK for use it in liturgy. That is backwards and what Contemporary Praise and Worship (i.e. Soft Rock) attempts to do. That also creates the unintended consequence of legitimizing an instrument’s usage solely on the basis of the genre to which it is most common. That has nothing to do with Church teaching and IS strictly preferential or perhaps just ignorant.
I have yet to hear any (exceptions being a few feeble attempts) to make these types of instruments resonate with church teaching. It is a heavy burden given their inherent purpose. Perhaps there will be a time when someone will apply them appropriately. Tough, but not impossible, even for an accordian…
Joe B
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