Are Eastern Catholics to look to the Eastern Orthodox for patristic guidance?

[Magicsilence]

What do you think?

Should an Eastern Catholic be looking to the Eastern Orthodox in order for him/her to fully comprehend his/her faith?

Does Eastern theology necessitate a rejection of Latin theology?

And, if yes, where does one draw the line? Where do you draw the line, and from where do you take guidance to do so?

 

[Seamus_L]

Most assuredly not in my opinion. Many EC’s, including Ukrainian Catholics, Maronites, Chaldeans, and Ruthenians are already close to the Latin Church in their beliefs. To begin changing to become fully like the Orthodox would do more harm to the Church’s unity.

 

[Diak]

I disagree - it is clear from the Union of Brest that the Ukrainian Church did indeed have an Orthodox view of some aspects at the time, but certainly acknowledged the principle of primarcy. The history and thought are far too complex to simply reduce to an “either-or” toggle switch; for us Greek Catholics it is probably closer to “both and”.

 

[Woodstock]

Most assuredly not in my opinion. Many EC’s, including Ukrainian Catholics, Maronites, Chaldeans, and Ruthenians are already close to the Latin Church in their beliefs. To begin changing to become fully like the Orthodox would do more harm to the Church’s unity.

:ehh:

This is how I read the above: We’ve worked long and hard getting them to give up all that eastern junk and we’ve almost got them to be completely Latin. Don’t go undoing all that work now.

:doh2:

 

[ASimpleSinner]

:ehh:

This is how I read the above: We’ve worked long and hard getting them to give up all that eastern junk and we’ve almost got them to be completely Latin. Don’t go undoing all that work now.

:doh2:

Asking for clarification may be more helpful than paraphrasing in this manner.

I am not thrilled with the response myself, but I would like to know if I understand what he is meaning better.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

“Yes, but…”

…a certain amount of consideration and judgement must be used in light of history and certain polemic tendancies to contradistinction found in some circles.

In the wake of the proclamation of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, some Orthodox literature and writers began to voiciferously deny and denounce it even a possibility - in a reactionary manner really. Before Rome so spoke, any number of theologians might be read who suggest that the IC (if not in those terms) was a very real and valid pious opinion/speculation, etc.

At a local Greek Orthodox book store (located in the parish hall) I was looking through a rather handsome leather-bound volume on the Life of the Mother of God offered from patristic stand points. I was a little dismayed to find on every other page a polemic for why Rome was in grave heterodox error…

I don’t believe such as that would be helpful or historically accurate in recovering fuller Eastern patrimony.

 

[Woodstock]

Asking for clarification may be more helpful than paraphrasing in this manner.

I am not thrilled with the response myself, but I would like to know if I understand what he is meaning better.

You are right.

Seamus, would you please clarify what you meant? I’ve already stated how I read what you wrote. If that isn’t what you intended, would you please explain what your intent was?

 

[Seamus_L]

Eastern junk ? Almost got them completely Latin ? I never said any of that. My point is that it is better to be more like the rest of the Catholic Church than it is in seeing how fully Orthodox you can become, because the latter neccesitates rejecting Church teachings at some point.

                 I wouldn't encourage the wholesale adoption of a multitude of Latin practices-devotions in the Eastern Church, even if I could, but like alot of cradle EC's I see nothing wrong whatsoever with having the Rosary and Stations Of The Cross in Eastern Churches. 

                In my many personal experiences I've yet to encounter a middle aged to elderly EC who had to set me straight about how there Church isn't under Rome, has a different understanding of theology etc, needs to become fully orthodox etc, but I have heard things like that from over zealous converts.

               So no, I'm not in favor of filling your churches with statues and organ music, nor am I in favor of eliminating your beautiful liturgies. The Rosary and the Stations won't kill you though, and they might even be edifying.

 

[East_and_West]

:ehh:

This is how I read the above: We’ve worked long and hard getting them to give up all that eastern junk and we’ve almost got them to be completely Latin. Don’t go undoing all that work now.

:doh2:

The way I understood what he was saying is the following: If they become just like the Eastern Orthodox, then they are no longer Catholic but Eastern Orthodox.

 

[chrisb]

Grace and Peace,

Since Vatican II the West has come a long way to all out embracing a more Eastern way of thinking of the faith. I’m not sure if this was just the euphoria of the times in which the Council was held or a real spirit of ecumenism with the east but it’s cost us a great deal of our identity as Roman Catholic which some appear to look back on with greater and greater nostalgia.

As far as looking East for Patristic Guidance, I don’t think it is such a bad idea seeing that most Western Clergy know little or nothing about the Early Church Fathers.

Everything I’ve learned about the Early Church has come from Eastern Patristics. The West seems to have a hard time looking past Vatican II or at best Trent…

 

[Harpazo]

Eastern junk ? Almost got them completely Latin ? I never said any of that. My point is that it is better to be more like the rest of the Catholic Church than it is in seeing how fully Orthodox you can become, because the latter neccesitates rejecting Church teachings at some point.

                 I wouldn't encourage the wholesale adoption of a multitude of Latin practices-devotions in the Eastern Church, even if I could, but like alot of cradle EC's I see nothing wrong whatsoever with having the Rosary and Stations Of The Cross in Eastern Churches. 

                In my many personal experiences I've yet to encounter a middle aged to elderly EC who had to set me straight about how there Church isn't under Rome, has a different understanding of theology etc, needs to become fully orthodox etc, but I have heard things like that from over zealous converts.

               So no, I'm not in favor of filling your churches with statues and organ music, nor am I in favor of eliminating your beautiful liturgies. The Rosary and the Stations won't kill you though, and they might even be edifying.

The Rosary and Stations are edifying, but the East have their own traditions and devotions in these regards. What you and many Roman Catholics fail to understand is that the Catholic Church isn’t solely Roman. It’s a Communion of Churches, as it always has been. While the Western part is currently the largest, it doesn’t mean it’s views on Theology, devotions, etc. are superior.

Just as I’m sure you wouldn’t want practices forced on you from Eastern Catholics, you have no place to force Western practices on Eastern Catholics. Eastern Catholics and Western Catholics believe all the same things, but East and West look at them differently, and that’s really the beauty of the Catholic Church.

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[a_pilgrim]

My point is that it is better to be more like the rest of the Catholic Church than it is in seeing how fully Orthodox you can become, because the latter neccesitates rejecting Church teachings at some point.

How would you reconcile this statement in the face of Rome’s mandate that the Eastern Churches return to their original traditions and praxes which are, in many cases, decidely more Orthodox than the traditions and praxes of the Latin Church (ref: +JPII’s 1995 apostolic letter Orientale Lumen)? Are you suggesting that it would be better for the Eastern Churches to ignore the Holy Father’s directive and “default” to a more Latin view of things?

I don’t mean to offend, Seamus, but when I first read your initial post I interpreted it much the same as did Woodstock. And frankly, your clarification, as quoted above, has sort of the same feel to it as well. I mean, it’s hard to miss the inference that the “rest of the Catholic Church” that you refer to can only be the Latin Church… right?

JPII recognized that the Eastern Catholic Churches could and should express their Catholicism in terms that are more Orthodox than Latin in tradition and praxis, because these are the theological constructs that are native to these Churches and the faithful that belong to them. He recognized as well that this could be done without compromising and/or rejecting the core teachings of the Church… and he encouraged it! Catholicism, after all, represents unity, not uniformity.

 

[ELEUTHERIUS]

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

The Eastern Catholic Churches don’t have to look to Eastern Orthodoxy to be truly Eastern. All we have to do is look to those Truly Eastern Traditions which are within our own Churches. We must be true to ourselves, not bending to what others think we are supposed to be whether they are Orthodox or Roman Catholic.
I would recommend that Eastern Catholics read the Literature that each of their Churches publishes. Read the Eastern Code of Canon Law and read the writings of the Church Fathers. For members of the Byzantine Catholic Churches in North America, I would recommend reading the Light for Life series: The Mystery Believed; The Mystery Clelebrated and The Mystery Lived. This series was commissioned by the Eastern Catholic Bishops in the United States and presents and overiew of the faith for Byzantine Catholics.

For Roman Catholics I would recommend that you read Orientale Lumen, The Light of the East. An Apostolic Letter of Pope John Paul II, written to help Roman Catholics understand who the Eastern Catholic Churches are.

Yes, It would kill us spiritually if we were to adopt the Rosary and the Stations of the Cross to the detriment of our authentic Eastern Traditions and practices, which did happen in the not to distance past.

Yours in Christ,

Father Deacon Paul

 

[Alexius]

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

The Eastern Catholic Churches don’t have to look to Eastern Orthodoxy to be truly Eastern. All we have to do is look to those Truly Eastern Traditions which are within our own Churches. We must be true to ourselves, not bending to what others think we are supposed to be whether they are Orthodox or Roman Catholic.
I would recommend that Eastern Catholics read the Literature that each of their Churches publishes. Read the Eastern Code of Canon Law and read the writings of the Church Fathers. For members of the Byzantine Catholic Churches in North America, I would recommend reading the Light for Life series: The Mystery Believed; The Mystery Clelebrated and The Mystery Lived. This series was commissioned by the Eastern Catholic Bishops in the United States and presents and overiew of the faith for Byzantine Catholics.

For Roman Catholics I would recommend that you read Orientale Lumen, The Light of the East. An Apostolic Letter of Pope John Paul II, written to help Roman Catholics understand who the Eastern Catholic Churches are.

Yes, It would kill us spiritually if we were to adopt the Rosary and the Stations of the Cross to the detriment of our authentic Eastern Traditions and practices, which did happen in the not to distance past.

Yours in Christ,

Father Deacon Paul

How about when most in the Melkite and Armenian churches seek to be Orthodox in communion with Rome, rather than Catholic. As I see it, the original union statements almost beg to be seen as Orthodox in communion with Rome, not Catholics with an Eastern twist. It is to the practices at the time of union that Easterners must go. Look at 16th century Ukrainians during and after union and you will see an almost identical church to the Orthodox. Nowadays, where does one go? Where is “Eastern Catholicism?” Is it the Latinized churches, or the near Orthodox parishes? I don’t think it’s too difficult to understand what Pope John Paul II meant…

I will soon visit the local Armenian Catholic parish and I look forward to their perspective…

In short, yes, we must look to the Orthodox for clarification.

Prayers and Petitions,
Alexius

 

[Catholig]

How would you reconcile this statement in the face of Rome’s mandate that the Eastern Churches return to their original traditions and praxes which are, in many cases, decidely more Orthodox than the traditions and praxes of the Latin Church (ref: +JPII’s 1995 apostolic letter Orientale Lumen)? Are you suggesting that it would be better for the Eastern Churches to ignore the Holy Father’s directive and “default” to a more Latin view of things?

I don’t mean to offend, Seamus, but when I first read your initial post I interpreted it much the same as did Woodstock. And frankly, your clarification, as quoted above, has sort of the same feel to it as well. I mean, it’s hard to miss the inference that the “rest of the Catholic Church” that you refer to can only be the Latin Church… right?

JPII recognized that the Eastern Catholic Churches could and should express their Catholicism in terms that are more Orthodox than Latin in tradition and praxis, because these are the theological constructs that are native to these Churches and the faithful that belong to them. He recognized as well that this could be done without compromising and/or rejecting the core teachings of the Church… and he encouraged it! Catholicism, after all, represents unity, not uniformity.

Personally I think the Seamus was stating that he didn’t think that the Eastern Catholics should try to be more Orthodox than the Orthodox Patriarchs. They shouldn’t seek to be Orthodox - but rather Eastern Catholics.

Catholig

 

[Seamus_L]

Ultimately what I believe may be irrelevant, since I’m neither a bishop or priest or even a member of an EC Church. What I do morally support is the right of those EC’s who have become attached to certain devotions with Latin origins, and which with the passing of time certainly qualify as traditions. Those devotions I speak of such as the Rosary and Stations of the Cross, do have a history(though relatively shorter) of use in the East, and it would take some doing to attempt to prove they did any harm. In fact 50 years ago when all those Latinizations were common, how many Eastern Rite Churches were getting ready to close there doors permanently ? Not too many I’d wager, though that’s sadly not the case anymore.

                Another thing I fail to understand about what seems to be a vocal minority of Easterners is this insistence on absolute purity of rite. When you talk about purity of rite in the Latin Church, it's very easy to get labled a fanatic or extremist, or at best, someone who want's to set the clock back. If you really feel that saying the Rosary in an Eastern Church somehow does harm to your Eastern spiritually, then all I can say is that it would probably kill you to endure what Traditional RC's have gone through since the 1960's.

               One of the things that Orientale Lumen failed to address was the many EC's who are attached to a FEW devotions that have Latin origins. I have not only spoken with life long parishoners of Eastern Churches who want to retain these devotions, but I also know of priests (not bi-ritual either) who agree with them. Imagine telling a 70 year old Ukrainian Catholic who lived under Communism during the 1950's-60's, to whom Our Lady Of Fatima was a bastion of hope in a world that seemed to be rapidly falling to the hammer and sickle "You shouldn't say the Rosary in church because it isn't one of our devotions". Among many older Ukrainian Catholic immigrants, as I'm sure everyone knows, you also won't find a particular high opinion of the Orthodox Church.

              As a Traditional Latin Catholic, I'm well aware of how most of the various Orthodox Churches regard us, and I know it is not very positive. For that reason I'm always perplexed when I hear certain EC's speak much more favorably of the Orthodox than of the RC Church. Many of those same Orthodox would also ask you the question "If you agree with us so much, why don't you join us". And of course if you go that route, you no longer have to quote Orientale Lumen anymore.

              Finally, hypothetically speaking, if I was an EC priest, and some people suggested to me that we should start Rosary devotions, while another group wanted a particular Eastern devotion, what would my response be ? I'd seriously endevour to accommodate both groups. Our Church is big enough to include quite a number of different devotions and that certainly includes Eastern ones that haven't been in use in a while.

 

[ELEUTHERIUS]

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

Seamus, I can understand that you feel strongly about certain Latin Devotions and have a great love for them. But, you can not speak as an Eastern Catholic. I agree with you that there are Eastern Catholics who have an attachment for the Rosary or the Stations of the Cross. But these are not the identity of most Eastern Churches. You speak of Eastern Churches of 50 years ago, churches that were not on the verge of closing. Lets go back 60 years when most Eastern Churches didn’t have Latinizations and the churches were prospering. It was in the 1950’s that Latinizations were really brought into the churches. Stations of the Cross replaced Presanctified Liturgies. Rosary replaced Matins before the Divine Liturgy. People sat in pews saying their rosary instead of participating in the Divine Liturgy as they should. Confessionals were brought in and people no longer confessed at the icon of Christ. Icon Screens were taken out of the Churches and in some cases Statues were brought in. I could go on with a list of Latinizations. Did they hurt our Church?
I could speculate that since the Latinizations came in our churches began to shrink and some were closed. Was this because of Latinizations? Who Knows.

I’m not going to get into a debate over this because we both probably feel strongly about our position and we will just go round and round.

Yours in Christ,
Father Deacon Paul

 

[Claudius]

This pole is asking the question in the wrong direction. It is the Eastern Orthodox who should look to the Eastern Catholics who represent the True Church founded by Christ. The Eastern Orthodox should try to conform their church to the true and authentic traditions passed down by the Eastern Catholics. Eastern Catholics do need to, in some cases, get back to their more traditional forms of worship and thought but that is not to say that they should copy the Constantinople, Eagyptian or Russian counterparts. If they are reversing Latinization, that is certainly ok, but they should not be doing it to become the mirror image of the self syled orthodox. They should be doing it to go back to their own more ancient versions of themselves. To say otherwise it to invite or even to make it look like a command that they go into error with those that have abandoned the true Orthodox and Catholic faith handed down to us by the Holy Tradition of the Holy Apostles that teach the true teachings of Jesus.

 

[Woodstock]

In fact 50 years ago when all those Latinizations were common, how many Eastern Rite Churches were getting ready to close there doors permanently ? Not too many I’d wager, though that’s sadly not the case anymore.

Actually, this is a huge problem. When they were being fully eastern, few were closing their doors. When they started being western, they started losing parishioners. Why would people drive all the way across town for the rosary or stations at the Eastern Catholic church when they could walk to the Roman Catholic church down the street for it?

If you really feel that saying the Rosary in an Eastern Church somehow does harm to your Eastern spiritually, then all I can say is that it would probably kill you to endure what Traditional RC’s have gone through since the 1960’s.

What does one have to do with the other? It does not matter if others have had worse and it does not matter if things could get worse. Bad is bad and we should work to make it good.

Finally, hypothetically speaking, if I was an EC priest, and some people suggested to me that we should start Rosary devotions, while another group wanted a particular Eastern devotion, what would my response be ? I’d seriously endevour to accommodate both groups. Our Church is big enough to include quite a number of different devotions and that certainly includes Eastern ones that haven’t been in use in a while.

If someone approached my priest asking for a public recitation of the rosary, I would expect him to do the following:
-Lovingly explain that the rosary is a wonderful devotion which many people find to be spiritually beneficial.
-Lovingly explain that it isn’t in our Eastern Catholic heritage and therefore not appropriate for public prayer.
-Lovingly explain some of the alternatives available, such as the Hours, which could be incorporated if not already present.
-Genuinely thank the person for seeing a need for corporate prayer and following through with leadership and action.
-Encourage the person to take a lead in getting Matins, a weeknight moleben, or other prayer service off the ground.
-Give the person sufficient information (in word and/or book) to understand and lead the effort.
-Give the person sufficient support to lead the effort. Teach about the particular prayer during the homily, put it in the bulletin, talk about it in Sunday School, and mention it one-on-one with parishioners.
-Praise the efforts of the person, encouraging him and others to see a need and take responsibility for meeting it.
-Be punctual, present, supportive, and enthusiastic in participating in the prayer service.

 

[Melchior]

Eastern and Western Catholics would all do well to look to the undivided church in it’s total for guidance. That will include some element the Orthodox focus on and some the west. Plus, the Eastern Catholics are just as much heirs to the eastern traditions as the Orthodox. So to the extent that the Orthodox have a legitimate tradition, take a look, but it is the Eastern Catholics tradition as well. In fact all the saints of the church belong to the whole church. So if a latin looks to St. Gregory and an Eastern looks to St. Augustine, so much better for the whole church Catholic.