Are female humans barred from the sanctuary during the Traditional Latin Mass?

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Yes. That was the case back in the day (and might still be) because it reflected the Church’s theology. I’m sure that at a trad parish, if the sacristan is a woman, she would be allowed to enter the sanctuary before and after mass.
 
Dugtrio1 said:
Female humans? Are animals allowed at Mass now? Could we just not say “women?” 😛
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“Male and female he created them.”

‘Female’ can be used as a noun.
 
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They were barred from the entire Chancel, both Sanctuary and Choir. The only exception was for Masses said in the absence of men, except the priest, in a cloistered monastery. Before Trent, when Chancel Screens were still in use, women were permitted to enter the sanctuary to receive Holy Communion, but after Trent, the conversion to altar rails made that unnecessary.
 
Are women banned from the Sanctuary during the TLM Mass?

I don’t think so, in my parish, we have nuns whose choir stalls are kind of in the Sanctuary.
Anyway, I’ve never heard of women being banned from the Sanctuary during Mass.
 
BridgetN said:
I don’t think so, in my parish, we have nuns whose choir stalls are kind of in the Sanctuary.
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The Choir is not in the Sanctuary. They are distinct parts of the Chancel. I highly doubt the nuns are allowed to enter the actual sanctuary during the Liturgy, except, perhaps, to receive Holy Communion, if pre-VII rules are being followed.
 
We only follow pre-VII rules. Your probably right in saying the choir is separate.

Where does it say women aren’t allowed in the Sanctuary?
 
BridgetN said:
Where does it say women aren’t allowed in the Sanctuary?
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Women were barred from being in the Sanctuary from the fourth century until 1983, give or take a year. For by far most of that time, the only people allowed in the Chancel, including both Choir and Sanctuary, were ordained male clergy. Lay men were even not allowed to enter until the 1600s, and even then it was controversial, but dictated by necessity.

There were a few exceptions:

Choir nuns were allowed to stand in the Choir in cloistered monasteries in the total absence of men, except for the priest. Later, they were allowed to sit in Choir in certain circumstances if they were hidden from the men in the congregation behind a screen, primarily in pilgrimage sites tended by female monastic orders.

I’m having trouble confirming it, but it seems that nuns in cloistered monasteries in the total absence of men except the priest MAY have been able to stand in for acolytes during the Mass, and to sing the liturgical parts of the Mass. I’m having trouble finding good sources on this, though.

From about the tenth century onward, pre-pubescent boys were allowed to sing the Liturgy and stand in the Choir, at least in some regions. They were not allowed to enter the sanctuary, though. Altar boys did not become a thing until sometime in the late 1600s or early 1700s.

Until about the time of Trent, when Chancel Screens were still in use, women (and lay men) could enter the Sanctuary to receive Holy Communion. After that, the introduction of altar rails meant that women had no reason to enter the Chancel.

If you see women in the actual Sanctuary during a Mass, that is a post-1983 innovation.
 
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Everything you said there sounds correct.
Thanks for the info, you learn something new everyday. I guess I have never seen a women in the Sanctuary during Mass, but I have never thought about why.
Thanks again. 🙂
 
BridgetN said:
We only follow pre-VII rules. Your probably right in saying the choir is separate.

Where does it say women aren’t allowed in the Sanctuary?
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Those who did not exercise a liturgical function during the Mass were not generally allowed in the sanctuary during the Mass. Women were not barred from the sanctuary any more than anybody else who is not serving. A man who is not serving should not be wandering into the sanctuary during mass, either . If a legitimate exception needs to be made, such as an emergency, common sense dictates that a woman would enter the sanctuary to deal with the emergency if she were the person best equipped to do so. If an altar server collapses and a female doctor is in the congregation, I don’t think there would be an issue with her going into the sanctuary to treat the patient. If a candle fell and something caught on fire and a woman sitting near was the first person to notice it, I would expect that she would enter the sanctuary to extinguish it, if none of the servers noticed. It would be foolish for her to wait for a man.
 
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There were three occasions when women entered the sanctuary during the Liturgy:
  1. Confirmation
  2. Nuptial Mass
  3. Religious profession
That was it. Having said that, the use of the words barred and banned in this thread are charged with political overtones.
 
The issue is they couldn’t be clergy and only clergy had any reason for being in the sanctuary during Mass. With the lack of those in minor orders, lay men filled those clerical positions. Over time, lay men came to dominate those positions so they essentially morphed into lay positions, rather than clerical positions done by laity. Just as happened earlier with choirs, without the connection to the clerical state, there was no longer a real distinction between lay men and lay women and so eventually women were also permitted to take on those lay roles.

The TLM follows the rubrics and laws in place in 1962, when women were not permitted these roles. Just like everyone else in the pews, they simply have no reason to enter the sanctuary.
 
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Dugtrio1 said:
Female humans? Are animals allowed at Mass now? Could we just not say “women?” 😛
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Actually, both the Eastern Iconostasis and the Western Alter Rail originate in a barrier that was erected to keep animals out of the Holy Place.

Many/most early christians were so poor that they could not risk leaving their animals behind . . .

hawk
 
dochawk said:
Actually, both the Eastern Iconostasis and the Western Alter Rail originate in a barrier that was erected to keep animals out of the Holy Place.
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Do you have a source for that? Both were developed in big cities, and judging from the culture of the the time in both Rome and Constantinople, it seems dubious that “animals” of any sort were allowed in church buildings. Even non-baptized people weren’t allowed in.
 
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When the altar rail was primarily in use, many churches were somewhat open air due to the lack of air-conditioning. Their doors were open most of the day to allow for breezes and the airing out of candle and incense smoke. The rails weren’t designed to keep out animals during the mass but rather during these times during the day that they were somewhat sparsely populated. I am in the Philippines and I have lost track of the number of times that I’ve seen a dog try to sneak in to escape the noonday heat.

It is kind of a practical aspect which has crept into liturgy like how the pall is primarily a shield to keep flies out of the Precious Blood.
 
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AndrewAxland said:
Do you have a source for that?
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My parish priest, who is amazingly well versed in first century palestine. I’ll try to remember to ask for a source.
CRM_Brother said:
It is kind of a practical aspect which has crept into liturgy like how the pall is primarily a shield to keep flies out of the Precious Blood.
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The byzantines took that farther (there’s a reason we say Byzantine liturgy isn’t done 'til it’s overdone).

We have the Aër, which is supported by the asterisk (a simple frame) over the bread from preparation, through the Great Entrance, then removed and wave over the gifts during the creed. Some Byzantines still eve the cherubicon/fans during this period, and they come from being present to keep bugs away (and, by some accounts, to fan the priest to cool him down).

And the Slavic practice of adding warm water to the Precious Blood for the fervor of our prayers? It comes from the far north with drafty, unheard churches cold enough to freeze wine in a cup during winter . . . I have no idea how th Melkites picked it up, given their climate (where adding ice could have been a parallel development . . .)

hawk
 
dochawk said:
And the Slavic practice of adding warm water to the Precious Blood for the fervor of our prayers? It comes from the far north with drafty, unheard churches cold enough to freeze wine in a cup during winter . . . I have no idea how th Melkites picked it up, given their climate (where adding ice could have been a parallel development . . .)
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My pastor, who is from the Old Country (no, not Pennsylvania 🤣) says that is very much still an issue. He used to have to boil the water at home and bring it to the church in a thermos, lest it freeze.
 
dochawk said:
My parish priest, who is amazingly well versed in first century palestine.
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There were no church buildings in first century Palestine, never mind altar rails. Barriers between the Chancel and the nave were a fifth-century big-city invention, and were designed to keep people out, specifically those who were not ordained clerics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templon

Sorry, but the animal thing sounds like pure bunk, with no plausible basis in fact. Fifth century Constantinople was a major metropolis, and even Rome at that time, though past its peak, was still a major urban center.
 
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