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Tsuwano
Guest
Thank you, Canto. I find both of these texts useful and filled with common sense.
Are guitars, rock bands, lifeteen, dancing, etc. all allowed?
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elts1956
Guest
No, definitely not. Neither the priest nor the parishoners understand what the “Spirit of Vatican II” is about.
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1way
Guest
Well, There are limits. I totally agree with you there.
… And I totally respect your response.
What I experienced growing up was a dark, dank sanctuary where tiny ancient wrinkled very sad looking grandmas in babushkas and black fat shapeless dresses lit innumerable candles in red shot glasses that reflected against stained glass images of dour looking men in long robes while I was on my knees listening to a priest that should have given up the ghost long before I was conceived … hack and cough between words that I had no clue what he was mumbling… while my real, heartfelt prayer was that the cranky old gentleman wouldnt die in the middle of his homily … ( or my Friday confession) …and that the designated nun would click that cricket for the final genuflection so we kids could once again for the thousandth time file out those oaken doors into the two minute reprieve sunlight and fresh air…
Str Canshious’, with her wicked painful ruler, in math class, was heaven … compared to Father Downeys rendition of the Holy sacrifice of the Mass…every morning at 8:30 am … for what seemed like eternity to a kid in Catholic grade school. That was the warmup for his three hour novenas every Friday. Not to mention his plodding stations of the cross during lent.
Then there were the Nuns. From 9:00 am to 3:00 pm.
My 3 brother and 2 sisters couldnt stand it. they were so obviously miserable every day that my good Catholic parents finally pulled them out of Catholic school and enrolled them in the public system.
I was the oldest and by God at least one of their kids would have a good Catholic education. I was elected. After that experience … being pulled over by a cop is a piece of cake. Honestly, my demeanor immediately telegraphs to the cop… go ahead … take your best shot. I have been stopped more than once but havent gotten a ticket for years… Mutual unspoken respect … Thank you Str Cancious.
The only time any of my brothers and sisters set foot in a Catholic Church today is for a wedding or a funeral.
They are, all of them, successful productive people that love their families dearly.
The point. There was no up side. The atmosphere was medieval. and the result was the loss of good people.
You are upset about the cheap hamburger helper. … I suggest that the problems you see are a direct result of years of neglect.
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thunderballs75
Guest
Ahh! Sounds beautiful.
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1way
Guest
LOL!Ahh! Sounds beautiful.
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maurin
Guest
usually by the time one has been out of elementary school for, what–say 10 or 20 years?–one has long ago lost the elementary school mentality and mode of seeing. I believe it is Saint Paul who mentions that.Well, There are limits. I totally agree with you there.
… And I totally respect your response.
What I experienced growing up was a dark, dank sanctuary where tiny ancient wrinkled very sad looking grandmas in babushkas and black fat shapeless dresses lit innumerable candles in red shot glasses that reflected against stained glass images of dour looking men in long robes while I was on my knees listening to a priest that should have given up the ghost long before I was conceived … hack and cough between words that I had no clue what he was mumbling… while my real, heartfelt prayer was that the cranky old gentleman wouldnt die in the middle of his homily … ( or my Friday confession) …and that the designated nun would click that cricket for the final genuflection so we kids could once again for the thousandth time file out those oaken doors into the two minute reprieve sunlight and fresh air…
Str Canshious’, with her wicked painful ruler, in math class, was heaven … compared to Father Downeys rendition of the Holy sacrifice of the Mass…every morning at 8:30 am … for what seemed like eternity to a kid in Catholic grade school. That was the warmup for his three hour novenas every Friday. Not to mention his plodding stations of the cross during lent.
Then there were the Nuns. From 9:00 am to 3:00 pm.
My 3 brother and 2 sisters couldnt stand it. they were so obviously miserable every day that my good Catholic parents finally pulled them out of Catholic school and enrolled them in the public system.
I was the oldest and by God at least one of their kids would have a good Catholic education. I was elected. After that experience … being pulled over by a cop is a piece of cake. Honestly, my demeanor immediately telegraphs to the cop… go ahead … take your best shot. I have been stopped more than once but havent gotten a ticket for years… Mutual unspoken respect … Thank you Str Cancious.
The only time any of my brothers and sisters set foot in a Catholic Church today is for a wedding or a funeral.
They are, all of them, successful productive people that love their families dearly.
The point. There was no up side. The atmosphere was medieval. and the result was the loss of good people.
You are upset about the cheap hamburger helper. … I suggest that the problems you see are a direct result of years of neglect.
I suggest that the problems you see are a direct result of years of modernism. And really, only a puerile spirit would joke about a “heartfelt prayer” for the death of someone, let alone a Priest.
I don’t mean to be unkind.
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JustaServant
Guest
Somewhere in my bookmarked sites I have a Latin Mass on Youtube (in France somewhere), and I can guarentee the beauty of the choir produces an emotional response.
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michaeldaniels
Guest
This is the classic example of us trying to conform God to our wills…instead of us conforming to His. It is not fun to go to Church and be told that we are sinning…to be told that we are dressing inappropriately…that women shouldn’t use birth control…or co-habitation is wrong…that we shouldn’t do this or that…that is exactly what used to happen at a Catholic Church and school. It was strict, because they understood human nature and the need to speak out against sin…and tried to instill a moral compass and a love for The Sacraments within us. That is really not the case anymore. Not the Church…but the detractors of the Church who is trying to change it, reminds me of Colin Powell and this idea of the “big tent” Republican party…saying in order for the Republican Party to survive, it must be inclusive of all types of people and be a lot larger than what it is…that is a bunch of non sense…The Republican Party, and The Catholic Church will grow and thrive BY CLEARLY outlining their beliefs…not pandering to those who really don’t belong…and by making a clear divide and noticeable differences which sets us apart from Protestants or democrats in the case of the Republicans. The Church is truth…it is Holy and has not erred…it is the individuals within it trying to lead us down the wrong path…the same people screaming for women’s ordination…or the same ones pushing to have girls on the Altars…or EMHC’s when there is no need for them…people who hide the Tabernacle…those who have lost belief in the Real Presence, etc…Now a days…if what we are being told is not expedient…or we don’t agree…we complain and try to make that priest and the church conform to how we think it should be…but that is wrong. We either accept The Church and all of its teachings…or we are living a lie by saying we are CAtholic…we must bend and conform to The Church. With that said…with these practices that haven’t been explicitly abolished and are somewhat and encouraged to take place during Mass, such as the lay people adopting the Orans Position…just because people are afraid to speak out against it and it is allowed to happen, don’t assume it is adopted and accepted by the Church…because it isn’t. Heck…travel to Cardinal Mahony’s Arch-Diocese, and you will see a litany of abuses that he allows to happen…a Prince of The Church…and he allows so many abuses to take place. Sorry if this is kind of confusing of there is misspelled words…I am in a huge hurry on my way to work. God Bless
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JustaServant
Guest
Is it possible that many of the abuses people speak of are geograpical in nature? I live in a large town in Wv (there are no cities in Wv
) and I have never seen these kinds of abuses. Of course this area is very conservative and predominately Baptist and CoC. Perhaps these things happen more in big cities where liberalism is rampant.
) and I have never seen these kinds of abuses. Of course this area is very conservative and predominately Baptist and CoC. Perhaps these things happen more in big cities where liberalism is rampant.
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1way
Guest
You read what I wrote … perfectly backwards. In fact you took all of the words I wrote and made up your own fantasy.
I was a kid. I had no desire to see anything like what you project. I honestly thought in my kid mind that the Priest was not going to make it through one of his Masses. I said I DID NOT want that to happen. If you interpret it in ANY OTHER WAY … you are in error.
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stringbeanduck
Guest
Culture difference is understandable, but most teens who like the life teen come from parents who grew up with either the TLM or just a reverent English Mass(if that’s what you call it). A reverent English Mass is very understandable to a teenager, the problem is if you don’t make God fun, they get board. Teens want to feel part of something, and when they’re not involved, they don’t come. That’s typical, which is why I have no problem with praise and worship programs separate from Mass. I’ve been to a LTM just a few days ago when I was at mission trip and didn’t like it. It was distracting from focal point of the Mass which is the Eucharist. In my findings, LTMs are there to engage teens in worship/praise, rather than true purpose of Mass. It makes the Mass more about and for the teens enjoyment more than it is about God. There’s what 168 hrs in the week or something like that? What’s wrong with giving 1 hr of it strictly to God, not us, but Him. After that we have 167 left which we can find time for praise and worship stuff. Though I’m not on fire over it, I’m glad teens are available to praise and worship music, but that should be separate from Mass.
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Shin
Guest
Here’s a Moto Proprio on Sacred Music from Pope St. Pius X. . not too long past, its principles are very key to understanding the difference between the sacred and the profane.
Excerpts:
And indeed, whether it is owing to the very nature of this art, fluctuating and variable as it is in itself, or to the succeeding changes in tastes and habits with the course of time, or to the fatal influence exercised on sacred art by profane and theatrical art, or to the pleasure that music directly produces, and that is not always easily contained within the right limits, or finally to the many prejudices on the matter, so lightly introduced and so tenaciously maintained even among responsible and pious persons, the fact remains that there is a general tendency to deviate from the right rule, prescribed by the end for which art is admitted to the service of public worship and which is set forth very clearly in the ecclesiastical Canons, in the Ordinances of the General and Provincial Councils, in the prescriptions which have at various times emanated from the Sacred Roman Congregations, and from Our Predecessors the Sovereign Pontiffs.
Excerpts:
Code:
Nothing should have place, therefore, in the temple calculated to disturb or even merely to diminish the piety and devotion of the faithful, nothing that may give reasonable cause for disgust or scandal, nothing, above all, which directly offends the decorum and sanctity of the sacred functions and is thus unworthy of the House of Prayer and of the Majesty of God.
Code:
Sacred music, being a complementary part of the solemn liturgy, participates in the general scope of the liturgy, which is the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. It contributes to the decorum and the splendor of the ecclesiastical ceremonies, and since its principal office is to clothe with suitable melody the liturgical text proposed for the understanding of the faithful, its proper aim is to add greater efficacy to the text, in order that through it the faithful may be the more easily moved to devotion and better disposed for the reception of the fruits of grace belonging to the celebration of the most holy mysteries.
Sacred music should consequently possess, in the highest degree, the qualities proper to the liturgy, in particular, sanctity and goodness of form, which will spontaneously produce the final quality of universality.
It must be holy. Sacred music must, therefore, exclude all that is profane, not only in itself, but also in the manner in which it is presented by those who execute it.
It must be true art. Otherwise, in the minds of those who listen to it, sacred music will not be able to bring about the effect the Church intends, in admitting into her liturgy the art of musical sounds.
At the same time, however, sacred music must be universal in this sense. On the one hand, every country can admit its own native music forms into its compositions for church. On the other hand, these kinds of music must be subordinate to the general character of sacred music. This must be done in such a way that, on hearing the music, nobody of any other country would receive a negative impression.
Among the different kinds of modern music, that which appears less suitable for accompanying the liturgy is the theatrical style which was exceptionally popular during the [nineteenth] century, especially in Italy. Of its very nature, this style is diametrically opposed to Gregorian Chant and classic polyphony and therefore to the most important standard of all good sacred music. The intrinsic structure, the rhythm, and the "conventionalism" of this style are poorly adapted to the requirements of true liturgical music.
It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church. Only in special cases with the consent of the [bishop of the diocese] will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the place. In that case, the composition and accompaniment must be written in a serious and appropriate style; the composition and accompaniment must conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.
In processions outside the church the Ordinary may give permission for a band, provided no profane pieces be executed. It would be desirable in such cases that the band confine itself to accompanying some spiritual canticle sung in Latin or in the vernacular by the singers and the pious associations which take part in the procession.
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giuseppeTO
Guest
As long as they are in full communion with the pope and the local bishop, then that must be an acceptable way to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Otherwise, why wouldn’t the bishop, an apostolic successor to the Apostles fix it?
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DorianGregorian
Guest
Not necessarily, there have been many bad Bishops, who abused their authority.
“The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.” - St. Athanasius
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
They converted them. Should the Spanish have tolerated human sacrifices of the Aztecs?
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Chris_McAvoy
Guest
For some people tradition helps lead us to salvation for other people tradition helps lead us somewhere else. There is vast ignorance of the traditions and what inculturation means from an orthodox perspective.
I with my limited musical abilities can sing what has came from 1300 years of tradition with ease…www.musicasacra.com/books/americangradual1.pdf
I question how music that is 90% biblical passages could be abandoned by the majority of the Church. My only answer is that it is our communion with demonic spirits. I will continue to pray and encourag singing of gregorian chant adapted to english language for the as long as I am alive.
I with my limited musical abilities can sing what has came from 1300 years of tradition with ease…www.musicasacra.com/books/americangradual1.pdf
I question how music that is 90% biblical passages could be abandoned by the majority of the Church. My only answer is that it is our communion with demonic spirits. I will continue to pray and encourag singing of gregorian chant adapted to english language for the as long as I am alive.
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michaeldaniels
Guest
Food for thought:
“In our time more than ever before, the chief strength of the wicked lies in the cowardice and weakness of good men… All the strength of Satan’s reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics” — Pope St. Pius X, Dec. 13, 1908.
“Disobedience is not schism, no matter how obstinate it is, for as long as it does not contain a rebellion against the authority of the Pope or of the Church” — St. Thomas of Aquinas, Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, Q.39, A.1 ad.8.
"The declared enemies of God and His Church, heretics and schismatics, must be criticized as much as possible, as long as truth is not denied. It is a work of charity to shout: ‘Here is the wolf!’ when it enters the flock or anywhere else — St. Francis de Sales, Introduction to the Devout Life
Pope Pius IX, Quartus Supra, January 6, 1873: “4. It has always been the custom of heretics and schismatics to call themselves Catholics and to proclaim their many excellences in order to lead peoples and princes into error.”
“Henceforth the enemy of the Church is no longer outside the Church; he is now within” — Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical E supremi apostolatus, October 4, 1903.
“Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and, indeed, to neglect to confound evil men — when we can do it — is no less a sin than to encourage them” — Pope St. Felix III
“In our time more than ever before, the chief strength of the wicked lies in the cowardice and weakness of good men… All the strength of Satan’s reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics” — Pope St. Pius X, Dec. 13, 1908.
“Disobedience is not schism, no matter how obstinate it is, for as long as it does not contain a rebellion against the authority of the Pope or of the Church” — St. Thomas of Aquinas, Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, Q.39, A.1 ad.8.
"The declared enemies of God and His Church, heretics and schismatics, must be criticized as much as possible, as long as truth is not denied. It is a work of charity to shout: ‘Here is the wolf!’ when it enters the flock or anywhere else — St. Francis de Sales, Introduction to the Devout Life
Pope Pius IX, Quartus Supra, January 6, 1873: “4. It has always been the custom of heretics and schismatics to call themselves Catholics and to proclaim their many excellences in order to lead peoples and princes into error.”
“Henceforth the enemy of the Church is no longer outside the Church; he is now within” — Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical E supremi apostolatus, October 4, 1903.
“Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and, indeed, to neglect to confound evil men — when we can do it — is no less a sin than to encourage them” — Pope St. Felix III
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Tsuwano
Guest
Not always. Sometimes they murdered them. No, the Spanish should not have tolerated the human sacrifices of the Aztec, but neither should they have annihilated the Aztec. There could have been a better way to introduce Christianity to some of these cultures.
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maurin
Guest
I read what you wrote the way you wrote it 1way. Perhaps the error was in your manner of writing.
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thunderballs75
Guest
No. But they didn’t have to completely annihilate, rape, and enslave them. These things are what the Church call sins.
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