Are guitars, rock bands, lifeteen, dancing, etc. all allowed?

[Filioque]

I’m about as traditional as they come, TLM or Eastern Rite, I’ve had to suffer through the “Upbeat” Liturgy in my local parish three times in the past twenty years. Once you strip away the Piano Bar singing, and the “Altar Girls” Koolade pithcers, and other things that I detest, you still have the Mass.

In the Mass we are not simply at Calvary in a mystical manner, but the Whole Entire Jesus is there, Body and Soul, Humanity and Divinity, present in the Holy Eucharist. We have present not just the Crucified Christ, who can never be killed again, but also the Resurrected and Glorified Christ. Too much emphasis on the Death, or on the Resurrection is an imbalance. While we require the graces of the Passion and the Death of our Lord to make our lives and souls ready for the next life, we cannot forget the hope that the Resurrection and Glorification of our Lord brings us. While the happy clappy atmosphere I saw the few times I was at my local parish, and a few weddings and funerals I’ve attended are a distorted view of the message of Christ and His Church, so too is the opposite reaction focusing only on the dead Christ on the cross. As Catholics I beleive that the whole of Salvation History is both fulfilled in Christ, and manifest to us in the Mass. Not just one part of our Salvation. In the Creed we proclaim the need for baptism and contrition, we proclaim the need for repentance, and in the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist we not only are present at Calvary, but also see for ourselves the Risen Christ who cannot be destroyed. Until Traditionalists show the joy of Jesus Resurrection along with the need for His Passion, I think there will be a limited attraction to the Ancient Rites.

 

[RyanML]

I’m about as traditional as they come, TLM or Eastern Rite, I’ve had to suffer through the “Upbeat” Liturgy in my local parish three times in the past twenty years. Once you strip away the Piano Bar singing, and the “Altar Girls” Koolade pithcers, and other things that I detest, you still have the Mass.

In the Mass we are not simply at Calvary in a mystical manner, but the Whole Entire Jesus is there, Body and Soul, Humanity and Divinity, present in the Holy Eucharist. We have present not just the Crucified Christ, who can never be killed again, but also the Resurrected and Glorified Christ. Too much emphasis on the Death, or on the Resurrection is an imbalance. While we require the graces of the Passion and the Death of our Lord to make our lives and souls ready for the next life, we cannot forget the hope that the Resurrection and Glorification of our Lord brings us. While the happy clappy atmosphere I saw the few times I was at my local parish, and a few weddings and funerals I’ve attended are a distorted view of the message of Christ and His Church, so too is the opposite reaction focusing only on the dead Christ on the cross. As Catholics I beleive that the whole of Salvation History is both fulfilled in Christ, and manifest to us in the Mass. Not just one part of our Salvation. In the Creed we proclaim the need for baptism and contrition, we proclaim the need for repentance, and in the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist we not only are present at Calvary, but also see for ourselves the Risen Christ who cannot be destroyed. Until Traditionalists show the joy of Jesus Resurrection along with the need for His Passion, I think there will be a limited attraction to the Ancient Rites.

Amen!

 

[stringbeanduck]

I bolded that word because I am trying to stress that appearance is not everything. I wrote that as a tongue-in-check comment. But nobody, got it. Should have worded it better.

Here’s an example:
outward solemn appearance could mean an inward solemn/reverent/bored/detached ethos
outward dancing appearance could mean an inward joyful/reverent/detached/playful ethos

We focus on God through feeling as well. Catholicism is a sensual religion in its own right.

And I’m not speaking for Lifeteen Masses…because I’ve never been to nor heard of one where I live. Though I’d ask, why did you go to that kind of Mass in the first place? Were you invited by someone?

I’d also like to know your opinion of the videos I posted.

Believe me I would not have went to it, however I was on Mission Trip and it was the only Mass open to me that weekend. It made me disapointed, because there was a real beautiful looking church with reverent Masses down the street, but I wasn’t allowed to leave the grounds.

 

[LoveJesus]

Ours is not a “touchy-feely” religion. It’s a faith known by reason. Jesus Christ is the Logos, the word. We hear him and we understand him with our intellect.

Laus Deo

I ask you, Laus Deo, if you can use reason to disprove the existence of God?

I can’t help but see a contradiction in your statement “It’s a faith known by reason.” If that were true, then believing in EVERYTHING that science teaches should be more plausible than believing in Jesus Christ and His resurrection. I was not raised Catholic. One of the things that brought me to the Catholic faith (besides the Eucharist) was its intellectualism. However, if we only understood Christ through intellectualism, who would believe in the Resurrection, or BVM’s birth, or even in miracles?

There are people in the world who have never been able to read a book, or have had a sufficient education to be able to “reason out” their faith. And yet, they still believe in Jesus. Why? Because they have faith, which is not driven by logic.

Please reflect on 2 Samuel 6:14-23

*And David was dancing before the LORD with all his might, and David was wearing a linen ephod. David and all the house of Israel were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouting and the sound of the trumpet. Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart. So they brought in the ark of the LORD and set it in its place inside the tent which David had pitched for it; and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.

When David had finished offering the burnt offering and the peace offering, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts. Further, he distributed to all the people, to all the multitude of Israel, both to men and women, a cake of bread and one of dates and one of raisins to each one. Then all the people departed each to his house.

But when David returned to bless his household, Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David and said, "How the king of Israel distinguished himself today! He uncovered himself today in the eyes of his servants’ maids as one of the foolish ones shamelessly uncovers himself!"

So David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel; therefore I will celebrate before the LORD.

“I will be more lightly esteemed than this and will be humble in my own eyes, but with the maids of whom you have spoken, with them I will be distinguished.”

Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.*

 

[elts1956]

I’m not talking about choreographed dancing. I’m talking about “natural” dancing that happens when one hears music he/she feels moved by (ie. hymns). Not moonwalking or breakdancing during Communion or Consecration. Of course those are solemn times of the Mass. Gosh.

I can ask the same for you. How does one commune with Jesus while being solemn and looking all sad and stuff? For all I know, someone could outwardly look solemn but be thinking about porn at the same time during the Consecration. It’s all relative. People are complaining (through a eurocentric lens) about how other cultures do Mass, and yet…the Church in those cultures is growing like crazy in these cultures (and those Catholics are VERY well catechized). Of course it’s not just because of dancing. People can follow ethics when it comes to Mass, but if their ethos is not changed, what’s the point?

Are these people taking away from the Mass to you?
youtube.com/watch?v=TygAdmS4Ru8
youtube.com/watch?v=LK4IC8RtNp4
youtube.com/watch?v=CRc54iO_j6U&feature=related

I bolded that word because I am trying to stress that appearance is not everything. I wrote that as a tongue-in-check comment. But nobody, got it. Should have worded it better.

Here’s an example:
outward solemn appearance could mean an inward solemn/reverent/bored/detached ethos
outward dancing appearance could mean an inward joyful/reverent/detached/playful ethos

We focus on God through feeling as well. Catholicism is a sensual religion in its own right. I don’t believe that Faith, or Love can be based solely on emotion. When the emotion leaves, where is the Faith and Love??
And I’m not speaking for Lifeteen Masses…because I’ve never been to nor heard of one where I live. Though I’d ask, why did you go to that kind of Mass in the first place? Were you invited by someone?

I’d also like to know your opinion of the videos I posted.

 

[elts1956]

I’m not talking about choreographed dancing. I’m talking about “natural” dancing that happens when one hears music he/she feels moved by (ie. hymns). Not moonwalking or breakdancing during Communion or Consecration. Of course those are solemn times of the Mass. Gosh.

I can ask the same for you. How does one commune with Jesus while being solemn and looking all sad and stuff? For all I know, someone could outwardly look solemn but be thinking about porn at the same time during the Consecration. It’s all relative. People are complaining (through a eurocentric lens) about how other cultures do Mass, and yet…the Church in those cultures is growing like crazy in these cultures (and those Catholics are VERY well catechized). Of course it’s not just because of dancing. People can follow ethics when it comes to Mass, but if their ethos is not changed, what’s the point?

Are these people taking away from the Mass to you?
youtube.com/watch?v=TygAdmS4Ru8
youtube.com/watch?v=LK4IC8RtNp4
youtube.com/watch?v=CRc54iO_j6U&feature=related

I viewed each of these links. I have found that in some cultures emotions are expressed more freely and I think the African culture is one of those. Since I have not been exposed to this type of demonstration from childhood up, I would find it personally very distracting. I have a friend who is married to a black fellow and they regularly attend the local Catholic Church which is in a black community. She herself says she needs to skip Mass there once in awhile and go to a more relatively conservative Mass. She was raised in the same all white community as I in the forties and fifties, so we are just not attuned to this type of reverence.

 

[Monica4316]

please read this article about what Pope Benedict said regarding music at Mass

ceciliaschola.org/notes/benedictonmusic.html

btw, VII said that Gregorian Chant (and even Latin) is STILL the preferred type.

I don’t like the modern music either I hope they bring back the chant. I think that probably they will…it seems change is coming up… like with the new translation of the Mass and more people wanting the TLM and such.

 

[corsair]

Guess I missed something along the way. I thought this was a “TRADITIONAL” forum.

 

[pnewton]

Guess I missed something along the way. I thought this was a “TRADITIONAL” forum.

I was thinking the same thing. The answer is of course they are not found in the TLM. If the poster wants more than a groupthink affirmation, he should ask this in the right forum. (Liturgy and Sacraments)

This thread here makes as much sense as going to a Baptist forum and asking if one should genuflect when entering church.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Please reflect on 2 Samuel 6:14-23

And David was dancing before the LORD with all his might, and David was wearing a linen ephod. David and all the house of Israel were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouting and the sound of the trumpet. Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart. So they brought in the ark of the LORD and set it in its place inside the tent which David had pitched for it; and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.

When David had finished offering the burnt offering and the peace offering, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts. Further, he distributed to all the people, to all the multitude of Israel, both to men and women, a cake of bread and one of dates and one of raisins to each one. Then all the people departed each to his house.

But when David returned to bless his household, Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David and said, "How the king of Israel distinguished himself today! He uncovered himself today in the eyes of his servants’ maids as one of the foolish ones shamelessly uncovers himself!"

So David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel; therefore I will celebrate before the LORD.

“I will be more lightly esteemed than this and will be humble in my own eyes, but with the maids of whom you have spoken, with them I will be distinguished.”

Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.

I really think there is no liturgical tradition of dance in the history of the Liturgy. The Last Supper there was no dancing. When the priests offered sacrifes in the Jewish Temple, I don’t think they were dancing. At the foot of the cross there was no dancing and celebration. The sacifice of the Holy Mass is the renactment of that sacred event.

 

[Shin]

I really think there is no liturgical tradition of dance in the history of the Liturgy. The Last Supper there was no dancing. When the priests offered sacrifes in the Jewish Temple, I don’t think they were dancing. At the foot of the cross there was no dancing and celebration. The sacifice of the Holy Mass is the renactment of that sacred event.

Well put, the Davidic example might be fitting to a Eucharistic procession outdoors, but not the mass.

 

[Layman]

In the West, we associate dancing with “gettin’ jiggy with it”, mating displays, amusing oneself and showing off.

Not a suitable practice for worshipping the Lord of the Universe within our culture(s).

 

[TamaraSieja]

Lifeteen if done in accordance with the rubrics is also legitimate. Like any other Mass, NO, EF, OF, traditional or whatever, if it does not follow the norms than yes, there can be problems. guitar does not equal lifeteen. lifeteen does not equal rock music. contemporary Christian music does not equal clapping, stamping, drums, bad behavior, or dancing. No liturgical dance has no place in the Mass of the Latin rite. Lifeteen does not incorporate it in their Mass. Those that are doing it have made their own additions to the LT program.

I feel dumb… what is lifeteen?

 

[Bluegoat]

I would disagree with the idea that the liturgy isn’t used to appeal to the emotions and senses at all. I would say, rather, that the emotions and senses are used as a way to support or initiate the reason. They must never be used in a way intended to bypass or subvert it. That s recognizing the way emotions are meant to be used in an individual in all situations, and recognizes that these things do have a power that is good and important.

Some individuals find their emotions much more easy to work with than their intellect, and it is especially important that the two be tied together in the practice of the liturgy for those people. Others, like myself, find their religious faith is primarily an intellectual thing, and need the emotions to be tied to the intellect to keep it from becoming too abstract.

And to some extent, the way this works for people depends on their cultural references. The wrong cultural references can have the opposite of the desired effect. This becomes a bit more difficult to manage in a society where people come from different cultural backgrounds.

Dance is an interesting question. Certainly if we think of dance as special movement, then the liturgy, traditionally done, incorporates that. Movement is used to tell what is going on and inspire reverence. Other forms of dance, in the West, don’t really fit into a liturgy. But I would actually say the way movement is used in the liturgy is meant to fulfill this function anyway. We don’t need liturgical dance, we have it.

But I don’t think it would be true to say that dance is always primarily emotional rather than intellectual, and more than it is true of music. It can incorporate both, and can be very intellectual. I would say that kind of dance is not particularly popular in the West, overall, and most people don’t have the training to interpret it. As well, like modern painting, modern dance tends to dwell on personal symbolism rather than a language of symbol or movement understood by all, and I tend to think that is inappropriate for Mass.

I would never object to a person swaying a bit while they sung a hymn though. It’s often an unconscious action in any case, and some people can’t sing if they don’t.

 

[Sarabande]

I haven’t really thought much about dancing at Mass because I haven’t seen it done in any parish I’ve been to in almost 15 years. I personally don’t think it is appropriate for Mass, though. That said, I was just watching the TV this morning and there was a commercial for some show coming up regarding worship. There was a quote someone said in regards to how the white Europeans worshiped and how the natives in Africa worshiped when they brought Christianity to Africa. “You white people go to church to find God. We dance to become God.” I would have liked to hear more about it to see if there was more clarification as to why they would say they dance to “become God”. I don’t want to believe that people today would think that way in regards to liturgical dance. I do realize that dance is common in certain cultures for worship, but I found that quote interesting.

 

[patrick457]

I really think there is no liturgical tradition of dance in the history of the Liturgy. The Last Supper there was no dancing. When the priests offered sacrifes in the Jewish Temple, I don’t think they were dancing. At the foot of the cross there was no dancing and celebration. The sacifice of the Holy Mass is the renactment of that sacred event.

I agree. Last time I checked, the Bible does not say the following :

Now standing beside the cross of Jesus were His mother, and the sister of His mother, Mary of Clopas, and Mary the Magdalene, and in front of them a troupe of dancers, clothed in tight garments, prancing around while holding bowls of incense. When Jesus therefore saw the dancers in front of Him, shaking their hips, He cried out in a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani?”

For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the night in which He was betrayed, stood up, clapped His hands, and after doing so, walked in a strange manner in front of His disciples and said, “This is the moonwalk, performed for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” For as often as you gyrate and move your body rhythmically, you proclaim the Lord of the Dance until He comes.

 

[patrick457]

And, 2 Samuel 6:

And it was told to David, saying, “YHWH has blessed the house of Obed-edom and all that he owns because of the ark of Elohim.” So David went and brought up the ark of Elohim from the house of Obed-edom to 'Ir-David with gladness. And it came to pass, when those bearing the ark of YHWH had gone six steps, that he sacrificed an ox and a fatling calf. And David was hopping (mekarker) with all his strength before YHWH - and David was girded with a linen ephod. And David and all [the house] of Yisrael brought up the ark of YHWH with shouting and with the sound of the shofar. And as the ark of YHWH came into 'Ir-David, Mikal bat-Sha’ul looked out the window and saw the king David leaping (mepazaz, “showing agility”) and hopping before YHWH; and she despised him in her heart. They brought the ark of YHWH and put it in its place in the middle of the tent that David had spread out for it. Then David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before YHWH. And when David had finished offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the Name of YHWH Tzeva’ot. And he handed out to all the people, to all the throng of Israel, both the women and the men, to everyone a loaf of bread, and one date-cake, and one raisin-cake. And all the people went, each to his house.

And David returned to bless his house - and Mikal bat-Sha’ul came out to meet David, and said, “How the king of Israel has honoured himself this day, uncovering himself today in the eyes of the slave girls of his servants, as one of the foolish shamelessly uncovers himself!” And David said to Mikal, “It was before the face of YHWH, who chose me over your father and all his house and appointed me as ruler over the nation of YHWH, over Yisrael; Therefore I will laugh before the face of YHWH, and I will shame myself still more than this and I will be lowly in my eyes! But with the slave girls of whom you have spoken, with them I will be held in honor.” Therefore Mikal bat-Sha’ul had no children until the day of her death.

One interesting thing here is that the word used here, karar (literally “to hop”), actually appears only in this passage - in 1 Chronicles 15:29 David is said to have been “skipping” (meraqad) and “laughing” (mesaqaq, also ‘to make sport’, ‘to celebrate’, ‘to play [an instrument, sing, dance]’). As an aside, David’s dance is interpreted by some to be a vestigial remnant of a nomadic custom when transferring a sacred object from one place to the other.

While there are other passages in the Old Testament which talk of dance (Exodus 15:20, 32:19; Judges 11:34; 21:21; 1 Samuel 18:6, 21:11, 29:5; Song of Songs 6:13; Jeremiah 31:13), the word used there is mekholah (from a root word meaning “to whirl”) - which usually signifies the ‘round dance’ commonly performed by women. In fact, when Scripture talks about dancing, it is usually the women who is described as doing so; David’s hopping dance is a rare example in the Bible of a male being described as ‘dancing’.

Dancing in Israelite culture, while not described in detail by the Biblical writers, is apparently a form of praise that goes hand-in-hand with music; religious and secular feasts are celebrations accompanied with song and dance. Unlike Egyptian culture, which reserves the dance for mourning and burial, the Israelites associate with times of joy. Sometimes dancing even made their way into religious ceremonies, as the “leaping dance” (waypassekhu) of the prophets of Ba’al (1 Kings 18:26); it has even been observed that the local manifestation of Ba’al in Lebanon is Ba’al Marqad, “Ba’al of the Dance” and that another Ba’al, Ba’al-Tzaphon (aka Ba’al-zephon) is depicted in one cylinder seal ‘skipping’ from mountain to mountain.

Leaving that aside, sometimes given the state of some dances today I find agreeing with Ellen G. White (one of the founders of the Seventh-day Adventists), who once wrote, “David’s dancing in reverent joy before God has been cited by pleasure lovers in justification of the fashionable modern dance, but there is no ground for such an argument. . . . The music and dancing in joyful praise to God at the removal of the ark had not the faintest resemblance to the dissipation of modern dancing. The one tended to the remembrance of God and exalted His holy name. The other is a device of Satan to cause men to forget God and dishonor Him.”
Now, I wouldn’t go so far as she does to attribute it all to Satan or to say that they are all evil, nor would I discourage dancing or consider it a sin some Adventists do, but she did get one thing right: there is a whole lot of difference between the sacred and the profance.

Our modern culture has lost sight of that distinction with its “nothing-is-sacred” approach, unfortunately. I admit that, just like many young men out there, I like some forms of hard rock music (or even disco ), but I don’t want to hear Do the Hustle or We Are the Champions or any Linkin Park song being played during say, the Offertory, much less see people dancing them. One comes to church to see something extra-ordinary; I feel that if we go inside God’s house and see things that we can see on the street or on television anyway, then our purpose of coming there is lost. God is just relegated to one corner while we prance around and sing and perform, purportedly to give praise to the actually-ignored Creator. Why should we waste time going to church if we can do the things we see and do inside there in other more suitable places?

Finally, sure we can praise God by dancing and song - there are a lot of examples for that. But in the Liturgy? Many of our ancestors in the faith did not feeling it was necessary to dance around the altar as the priest reenacts the sacrifice on the cross! Would it not be pretentious to try to outdo the fathers in their piety?
Yes, I am aware that some Churches such as those in Africa do have dance as an integral part of their ceremony, but that is not a sufficient excuse to go out and copy them - that is their culture, not yours or mine, just as the culture in which I live is not the culture that many posters are in. Sure, King David danced before God, but he only did it during the procession; he didn’t prance around the Tabernacle or during the sacrifices!

 

[Layman]

I was struck by a remark made in another thread and a previous poster in this one has echoed it:

"Would you the polka at the foot of the Cross of Calvary?"

Puts it in context, for me. The Mass is a re-enactment of the Sacrifice of Calvary. If people kept that idea in mind I’d say we’d have a lot less casual behaviour in church, for one thing.

Using what David did hundreds/thousands of years before the Incarnation is really reaching. It’s called archeologism, I understand: using something done ages ago as justification for doing it now. In totally different circumstances.

 

[Monica37]

A mass that is made relevant to a particular generation, is irrelevant to all the rest.

Rather we must become relevant to the mass!

:clapping:
Excellent point

 

[newbear]

i enjoyed reading what others had to say about guitars, rock bands, etc are used in the church. I say YES. After just working the Pentecostal youth conference in Nashville, where on last Wed night we had more young people there than at the Green Day Concert the Sat. night before that YES, YES, YES. If you never saw about 16,000 young people singing, playing their instruments, and YES even dancing, it is an experience you will always remember. The presence of the Lord was surely in the building and the people there.
I have seen different church groups come into our building and fill it up with the spirit of the Lord.using rock bands, etc.
There is nothing like being at work and and receiving God’s blessings. I didn’t miss going to a church service, they come to us.
Yes the music was loud, and if you are not use to it you might miss the message completely. I would say to open your heart and mind up to receive God’s words,

(I would get some ear plugs, if it is the volume of the music that is a problem for you.)
newbear