Are homosexuals born with this disorder?

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Then, of course, there are many homosexuals and gay advocates who also participate in this board, Catholics and non-Catholics, who ask not for understanding but for exception to their case, affirmation or confirmation of sinful behavior. It is unfair to use bigotry as an accusation when they do not hear what they want to hear, which is Church teaching on homosexuality is in error or should be changed.
IOW, there are indeed political activists on CAF, of both sexual orientations, who wish to use every question about homosexuality (and its behavior) in the Moral Theology subforum as a political platform. I’m not identifying necessarily anyone on this thread, or on others I’m participating in at the moment, but it’s a regular occurrence on this discussion forum. 🙂 You know who you are. 😉
 
@ InSearchofGrace;

My sister and her husband have the stated policy of “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” From witnessing the dynamic between these tow people and their homosexual son, I’d have to say that there is a palpable backwash of feelings that is intense enough that my nephew felt he had to move to another state in order to escape it. And that is given that his parents do actually love him and he loves them. But there is this elephant in the room no matter what. And while my nephew identifies with the elephant, necessarily, as it is his inborn nature, my sister and brother in law love him with the exception of that part of him. So the message that he gets and won’t admit to his parents it that he knows that their love is not unconditional, despite that they would do anything for him.
I understand you feel for your nephew. Your sister and husband love their son in the true spirit of parental love, as my parents loved my homosexual brother in the same spirit. Are you saying this is the wrong way to love one’s child? If you had your own son or daughter, would you give your blessing to a homosexual union, if such union is his/her inclination? For Catholic parents and those who accept natural law, it is not about winning the argument. It is about saving the soul of their son or daughter.

And this is the elephant in the room with everyone who is either phobic or even sincere in their convictions. They will not accept as integral to the person they are dealing with a factor that to them is an inescapable part of their nature. And for that inescapably part, because it is way in the minority and repulsive emotionally to so many, they are perforce emotionally persecuted, even unwittingly by those who may have very good intentions. And the Church says “Well, that’s a hard lot, but you have to live with it and never engage in that part of human intimacy that for most of us means love itself. Tough cookies.”
You make it sound that sexual urge is not to be denied, ever, that it needs expression, that gratification has to be the end. When a person, straight or gay, enters a forbidden sexual relation, if he listens to that inner voice, does he not reach a point of realizing its wrongness, wish for atonement and correction? Does he not believe in redemption?

As near as I can tell, ISoG, there are more like 12 gender orientations, far more likely than the two generally recognized, similarly to the idea that while the general blood types are recognized those have as well their subtypes and multitudinous variations. The broad types are generally for the purposes of safeguarding from toxic combination. And some of them are rarer than others. So it is clear on inspection that there is more of a spectrum of orientations than the either/or that the digital tendencies of the brain, and law, like to deal in.
And even the Church is unclear as to the actual origin of the condition and lacking that etiology already claims it to be a disorder based on what may in the long run prove to be far more of sociological sanctions than anything actually divine. One of the most profound things I ever heard in this regard was from a trance medium of astonishing accuracy who said that “Any message from the other side is necessarily tainted by the lens of the mediums personality.” Indeed, the entire realm of interpretation of the inner life is one of just that: interpretation. A comparison of the great mystics of the Church amongst each other and even of those outside the Church may be very useful in this consideration.
The Church officially said that “the psychological genesis of homosexuality is largely unknown”. But she maintains that “the inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.”

It is evident in your statements that you do not trust the teaching authority of the Church and you do not agree with Church position on homosexuality. My prayer for you is that you find your way back in fidelity to the Church in this regard.

Btw, the part of your post which I bolded is vague (referring to the trance medium and great mystics of the Church). St. Paul warned of private interpretation of sacred Scripture; as Church history proved, this was the root of heresies including Protestantism and the splinter into the 30,000 plus denominations, which you touched on in a previous post. As to the mystics of the Church, I hope you are cautious in extending credibility to sources aimed to discredit and weaken the Church with untruths.
All that is to say that in my conscience, whatever the official stance of the Church may be by force of momentum, there is a whole lot more latitude deserved in this issue than it is being ecclesiastically given from an official position. And I will stand before God as my judge with that and own it.
You mistake that the stance of the Church is by force of momentum. Please read that link I provided to you. It’s a brief read. That being said, I pray that the Holy Spirit comes to you in further discernment of the matter.
,
 
For my part I cannot fathom how someone could bring themselves except by ignorance, callousness, or emotional and intellectual dishonesty to not understand that the vast majority of homosexuals are born that way
mercatornet.com/articles/view/reorienting_sexuality/

Again, we do not acquire our sexuality “at birth” as we acquire fixed personality traits or even talents, because sexuality evolves over time. This is not a “Catholic” position but an understanding in secular psychological literature regarding the complexity of attraction, repulsion, reward, validation, parenting, experience and exposure, and cultural influences --in dynamic with physiological elements that are indeed inborn.
and are as blameless for that dynamic as you or I might be for handedness or the shape of our nose.
In that respect I agree that since most of us cannot locate, let alone understand, the origins of our eventual sexual orientation, and since some (not all) of the factors culminating in an orientation belong to the unconscious, the issue should not be one of blame and condemnation.
 
mercatornet.com/articles/view/reorienting_sexuality/

Again, we do not acquire our sexuality “at birth” as we acquire fixed personality traits or even talents, because sexuality evolves over time. This is not a “Catholic” position but an understanding in secular psychological literature regarding the complexity of attraction, repulsion, reward, validation, parenting, experience and exposure, and cultural influences --in dynamic with physiological elements that are indeed inborn.

In that respect I agree that since most of us cannot locate, let alone understand, the origins of our eventual sexual orientation, and since some (not all) of the factors culminating in an orientation belong to the unconscious, the issue should not be one of blame and condemnation.
Are you explicitly denying (by leaving out mention of) the possibility of the role of genetics or hormonal/biological factors (from birth) in this development of sexual orientation (of any kind)?
 
Are you explicitly denying (by leaving out mention of) the possibility of the role of genetics or hormonal/biological factors (from birth) in this development of sexual orientation (of any kind)?
Again,
This is not a “Catholic” position but an understanding in secular psychological literature regarding the complexity of attraction, repulsion, reward, validation, parenting, experience and exposure, and cultural influences –in dynamic with physiological elements that are indeed inborn.
Is there something not clear about that?
 
I guess for those who study the scriptures, you would work to find what all “God giving them up(over)” entails…
You lost me. I guess I’m just dense.

I read scripture and do my best to understand, but I look to the catechism to tell me how to interpret it if it is complex or vague.
 
You lost me. I guess I’m just dense.

I read scripture and do my best to understand, but I look to the catechism to tell me how to interpret it if it is complex or vague.
Sorry Bro. John, I should have been more specific with Romans 1:26
 
that is clear

do you accept that?
Again, the third time now:
In that respect I agree that since most of us cannot locate, let alone understand, the origins of our eventual sexual orientation, and since some (not all) of the factors culminating in an orientation belong to the unconscious, the issue should not be one of blame and condemnation.
However, if you’re trying in your usual way to reduce the issue to one of physiology, you will fail. Sexuality is complex, being relational, dynamic, conscious, unconscious, and evolving. It is not “more” physiological than non-physiological. Physiology is one of many factors.
 
Sorry Bro. John, I should have been more specific with Romans 1:26
Still I’m dense. I’m not sure what I said that you disagree with.

I don’t condone sexual activity out of wedlock. I also don’t believe anybody is beyond the limits of being saved. Jesus paid that price and our sins are like grains of sand against a bottomless ocean of mercy.

Are you saying we should turn our backs on people because of their sins?
 
Still I’m dense. I’m not sure what I said that you disagree with.

I don’t condone sexual activity out of wedlock. I also don’t believe anybody is beyond the limits of being saved. Jesus paid that price and our sins are like grains of sand against a bottomless ocean of mercy.

Are you saying we should turn our backs on people because of their sins?
It was just you made a comment about the cause and I responded about finding out what “God giving them over” would mean.That would give the answer form the scriptural side…We are to respond with agape love to them…He’s not willing that and should perish…
We are just pondering why they go that way…
 
Again, the third time now:

However, if you’re trying in your usual way to reduce the issue to one of physiology, you will fail. Sexuality is complex, being relational, dynamic, conscious, unconscious, and evolving. It is not “more” physiological than non-physiological. Physiology is one of many factors.
I asked you a different question than this. What you are saying you “accept” is not what I asked you if you “accepted.”

But whatever. 🤷
 
Again,

Is there something not clear about that?
I would underscore the point that there is no Catholic position on the causes of sexual orientation. By definition when the Church teaches on morals it refers to actions. Psychology and biology are both fairly new disciplines and there is so much which is unknown, especially with regard to neuroscience and the brain. The very term ‘sexuality’ is vague and can mean different things to different people. It is not really part of the classic Catholic theological vocabulary, and in this regard I must say I prefer the Thomistic understanding over that of modern psychology.
 
This is a very confusing thread for me. But the bottom line for me is: I believe in the Catholic churches’ position - to treat all with dignity and respect, and that we all have a call to remain chaste.

I also sympathize with those who carry this cross and I pray for you all every day.

God’s will be done.

Peace to all,
John Marie Philomena
 
mercatornet.com/articles/view/reorienting_sexuality/

Again, we do not acquire our sexuality “at birth” as we acquire fixed personality traits or even talents, because sexuality evolves over time. This is not a “Catholic” position but an understanding in secular psychological literature regarding the complexity of attraction, repulsion, reward, validation, parenting, experience and exposure, and cultural influences --in dynamic with physiological elements that are indeed inborn.

In that respect I agree that since most of us cannot locate, let alone understand, the origins of our eventual sexual orientation, and since some (not all) of the factors culminating in an orientation belong to the unconscious, the issue should not be one of blame and condemnation.
Great Post! 👍
 
This is a very confusing thread for me. But the bottom line for me is: I believe in the Catholic churches’ position - to treat all with dignity and respect, and that we all have a call to remain chaste.

I also sympathize with those who carry this cross and I pray for you all every day.

God’s will be done.

Peace to all,
John Marie Philomena
I too sympathize with those who carry this cross and pray for gay brethren and sisters.
 
In that respect I agree that since most of us cannot locate, let alone understand, the origins of our eventual sexual orientation, and since some (not all) of the factors culminating in an orientation belong to the unconscious, the issue should not be one of blame and condemnation.
Then therefore it should not be considered a priori a disorder. And those who “sympathize” while maintaining that it is a disorder are carrying out the activity of patronizing and are therefore abetting the persecution of our gay brothers ans sisters. Jesus had to have had encountered this question and there is not a single word from Him on the subject. Did He outsource dealing with it to Paul and/or not include this point in His new covenant that moved beyond the OT?
 
Then therefore it should not be considered a priori a disorder. And those who “sympathize” while maintaining that it is a disorder are carrying out the activity of patronizing and are therefore abetting the persecution of our gay brothers ans sisters. Jesus had to have had encountered this question and there is not a single word from Him on the subject. Did He outsource dealing with it to Paul and/or not include this point in His new covenant that moved beyond the OT?
False.
 
Jesus had to have had encountered this question and there is not a single word from Him on the subject.
No. That is thoroughly anachronistic that he would “have had to encounter this question.” It didn’t surface because it was so outside of his cultural and religious sphere that it was not germane to his message, or even to his conflicts with his opposers. Homosexual behavior was clearly forbidden in Jewish law, and as a faithful Jew, Jesus did not entertain variations from what was essential (not legalistic, but essential) to Jewish morality. Stop making Jesus into a 21st century dude. It’s anti-intellectual to do so.

And as for the new covenant, Jesus extended and fulfilled the old covenant; he did not delete it, deny it, or oppose it. (Matthew 5:17)
 
No. That is thoroughly anachronistic that he would “have had to encounter this question.” It didn’t surface because it was so outside of his cultural and religious sphere that it was not germane to his message, or even to his conflicts with his opposers. Homosexual behavior was clearly forbidden in Jewish law, and as a faithful Jew, Jesus did not entertain variations from what was essential (not legalistic, but essential) to Jewish morality. Stop making Jesus into a 21st century dude. It’s anti-intellectual to do so.

And as for the new covenant, Jesus extended and fulfilled the old covenant; he did not delete it, deny it, or oppose it. (Matthew 5:17)
Are you claiming that Jesus, God, never considered the issue of homosexuality? Are you claiming that Jesus, the man, never encountered a conversation about it or thought about it? Or are you claiming that you know how Jesus felt and thought about homosexuality? I am just curious, what, precisely, you are claiming about Jesus in his time.
 
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