are Jews saved without converting to catholicism?

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I don’t suppose that my reading is the final authority on the meaning of this or any other passage, but this is how I read it.

Recall that the preceding discussion is about the blindness of the Jews. He speaks of the people of God as an olive tree from which the Jews were broken off and the Gentiles grafted in. He then says that the gentiles should not boast because they can be broken off again and the Jews can be grafted back in again (v. 23): And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. He then explains that the Jews are natural branches.

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved.

Like Paul said earlier, there is a saved remnant of the Jews even though most are hardened against the Gospel. I am inclined to believe that he means that at the end of the world, the remaining Jews or at least a significant number forming a representative body will be converted. Another possibility is that he means that a portion of the Jews will always remain separated from the tree in order to leave room for gentiles to be grafted in without saying anything about the final conversion of the Jews, in which case “Israel” signifies the Church rather than the Israelites (cf. Gal. 6:16: “they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”) Either way, it does not say that the Jews who abide in unbelief will be saved if they abide in unbelief.

as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

This obviously is speaking about the New Covenant.

As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

I do not regard “election” as necessarily speaking of predestination to salvation, but the fact that Jews are naturally part of the people of Israel. When he says that they are beloved for the fake of their forefathers, that is because the descendants of the patriarchs did not receive the promises God made on account of their own merits, but on account of the patriarchs’ merits.

“The gifts of God are irrevocable” in this case concerns the covenants between God and his people. Compare with Romans 9:4-5: Who are Israelites, to whom belongeth the adoption as of children, and the glory, and the testament, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises: Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. The Jews have a natural claim to the gifts given to the descendants of Israel. Nevertheless, this will not avail them for salvation without faith. Think of the prodigal son. They will not have eternal life unless they are grafted into the tree.
I appreciate that you answered my question with such detail and took the time to write it up. It means a lot to me that you did this. Your answer is lucid and well thought out. I will consider what you have written at length.

-Tim-
 
Scripture is pretty clear. Faith in Our Lord, baptism, and the sacraments (most particularly, the Holy Eucharist) are necessary for salvation.

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How do we then reconcile your position with the fact that many from the Old Testament are Roman Catholic saints?

Moses, King David, Judas Maccabeus, Elisha, Samuel, Daniel, Rachel, Ruth and Deborah are all Roman Catholic saints. Elijah was taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot and the Roman Catholic Church celebrates his memorial 20 July. The Patriarch Abraham’s memorial feast is is October 9.

All these were never baptized. They never received a single sacrament including the Eucharist, yet they are in heaven. Your requirements for salvation makes this impossible.

-Tim-
 
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TimothyH:
Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

Scripture is pretty clear. Faith in Our Lord, baptism, and the sacraments (most particularly, the Holy Eucharist) are necessary for salvation.

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How do we then reconcile your position with the fact that many from the Old Testament are Roman Catholic saints?

Moses, King David, Judas Maccabeus, Elisha, Samuel, Daniel, Rachel, Ruth and Deborah are all Roman Catholic saints. Elijah was taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot and the Roman Catholic Church celebrates his memorial 20 July. The Patriarch Abraham’s memorial feast is is October 9.

All these were never baptized. They never received a single sacrament including the Eucharist, yet they are in heaven. Your requirements for salvation makes this impossible.

-Tim-
OT was the old covenant, and the NT is the new covenant. Our Lord taught precisely what I stated above.

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There is a lot of personal opinion in this thread, and much interpretation of single Scripture verses apart from the rest of scripture and apart from the Church. There is much error on this thread.

Let’s please recall that Moses, King David, Judas Machabeus, Elisha, Samuel and Daniel were all Jews and are all Catholic Saints. Lets not leave out the holy women Rachel, Ruth and Deborah to name a few. Some Jews are already there. Elijah the Jew was taken taken up to heaven in fiery chariot. The Carmelite Order traces its origins to Elijah. The Roman Catholic Church celebrates his memorial 20 July. Abraham is the Father of Faith, obedient to the point of sacrificing his own son on the mountain. Abraham’s memorial in the Roman Catholic Church is October 9.

The Church teaches that the Jews are included in God’s plan for salvation but we don’t know how, that’s all, and at the end of time we will all be one. Jesus will not forsake his own people.

-Tim-
Nobody was in Heaven before Jesus walked the earth. Heaven was CLOSED until the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus went down to the dead and took the righteous (those who accepted him as God and heard the good news) with him to Heaven.

CCC 633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

CCC 634 “The gospel was preached even to the dead.” The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

CCC 635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.” Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.”
 
OT was the old covenant, and the NT is the new covenant. Our Lord taught precisely what I stated above.

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I still don’t understand. You said that baptism was necessary for salvation, yet Elijah was not baptized and is saved.

Are you saying that those who abide by the Old Covenant do not need baptism or the other sacraments and those who abide by the New Covenant do need baptism and the other sacraments? If so, then cannot a Jew today who abides by the Old Covenant be saved? Or is the Old Covenant no longer in effect and that Jew is abiding by a covenant which no longer exists?

I’m trying to make logical sense of your argument at a very basic level and appreciate any help you can give.

-Tim-
 
From the CCC:
The necessity of faith
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43
What we do acknowledge is that “in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him.” (CCC 848).

Just to add to my earlier post, saying the covenant God made to Abraham is still valid does not mean Jews are excluded from the covenant of Christ or have a separate salvific covenant. Rather, it means it is possible for them to enter into and partake of Christ’s covenant, since Christ’s is the fulfillment of the covenant made with Abraham. If it were revoked, it would mean they were definitively cut off and unsaveable. Jews are still called to conversion and salvation, just like Gentiles, for the very fact that the promises God made to them are irrevocable, not in spite of it.

It would be wrong to say the Mosaic covenant is still valid–that has been revoked. A recent American catechism actually said it was still valid and as a result it had to be fixed.
 
Nobody was in Heaven before Jesus walked the earth. Heaven was CLOSED until the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus went down to the dead and took the righteous (those who accepted him as God and heard the good news) with him to Heaven.

CCC 633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

CCC 634 “The gospel was preached even to the dead.” The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

CCC 635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.” Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.”
But they have been saved. The title of the thread is “Are the Jews saved…”

We are not concerned with whether they went to Heaven immediately after death or only after Christ opened Heaven. They are in Heaven now and that means that they are saved.

Everyone keeps telling me that the sacraments are an absolute requirement for salvation. The question I am trying to find an answer to is how a Jew like Elijah be saved when he never received a single sacrament. The only answers I have received are “That was the old covenant, this is the new covenant” and “By the merits of Christ.”

So why can’t the merits of Christ be applied to a Jew today, or why can’t a Jew today who abides by the old covenant be saved like Elijah?

-Tim-
 
I don’t think the Old Covenant was really concerned with eternal salvation. It was more about the Israelites enjoying an abundant life within the borders of the earthly Promised Land.

As far as the eternal salvation of a particular Jew goes, like everyone else, if he loves God and dies in God’s friendship, he will be saved. The instant anyone manifests a love of God he receives the saving graces of a Christian baptism apart from the sacrament and, if he perseveres in his love of God and dies in God’s friendship, he will be saved. Check out St Thomas Aquinas’ teaching on baptism by desire or what he calls “Baptism of the Spirit” or “Baptism of Repentance” in his, Part 3, Question 66, Article 11.Summa Theologica Of course, anyone who knows in his heart that Jesus Christ is from God and that Jesus established the Catholic Church yet rejects them is not manifesting a love of God, is he?
 
How do we then reconcile your position with the fact that many from the Old Testament are Roman Catholic saints?

Moses, King David, Judas Maccabeus, Elisha, Samuel, Daniel, Rachel, Ruth and Deborah are all Roman Catholic saints. Elijah was taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot and the Roman Catholic Church celebrates his memorial 20 July. The Patriarch Abraham’s memorial feast is is October 9.

All these were never baptized. They never received a single sacrament including the Eucharist, yet they are in heaven. Your requirements for salvation makes this impossible.
Baptism is necessary not as to the sacrament, but as to its effect: unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5). Here are some excerpts from the Summa Theologiae.

St. Thomas explains that before Christ, even though the sacrament had not yet been instituted, men were still saved, being incorporated into Christ by faith in him though less explicit than what would come later.

At no time, not even before the coming of Christ, could men be saved unless they became members of Christ: because, as it is written (Acts 4:12), “there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.” But before Christ’s coming, men were incorporated in Christ by faith in His future coming: of which faith circumcision was the “seal,” as the Apostle calls it (Romans 4:11): whereas before circumcision was instituted, men were incorporated in Christ by “faith alone,” as Gregory says (Moral. iv), together with the offering of sacrifices, by means of which the Fathers of old made profession of their faith. Again, since Christ’s coming, men are incorporated in Christ by faith; according to Ephesians 3:17: “That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts.” But faith in a thing already present is manifested by a sign different from that by which it was manifested when that thing was yet in the future: just as we use other parts of the verb, to signify the present, the past, and the future. Consequently although the sacrament itself of Baptism was not always necessary for salvation, yet faith, of which Baptism is the sacrament, was always necessary.
(ST III.68.1, ad. 2)

He also explains that the sacrament can be received both in reality (i.e. the actual sacramental washing with water) as well as in desire. A man who earnestly desires the sacrament though he has not received the actual sacrament, receives the grace necessary for salvation.

The sacrament or Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free-will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.

Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of “faith that worketh by charity,” whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: “I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for.”
(ST III.68.2, co.)
 
He also explains that faith in Christ was always necessary as far as substance, only that the articles to be believed explicitly increased.

Among men the same things were always to be hoped for from Christ. But as they did not acquire this hope save through Christ, the further they were removed from Christ in point of time, the further they were from obtaining what they hoped for. Hence the Apostle says (Hebrews 11:13): “All these died according to faith, not having received the promises, but beholding them afar off.” Now the further off a thing is the less distinctly is it seen; wherefore those who were nigh to Christ’s advent had a more distinct knowledge of the good things to be hoped for.
(ST II-II.1.7, ad. 1)

He explains how as revelation increased, faith in Christ grew more and more explicit.

As stated above (5; 1, 8), the object of faith includes, properly and directly, that thing through which man obtains beatitude. Now the mystery of Christ’s Incarnation and Passion is the way by which men obtain beatitude; for it is written (Acts 4:12): “There is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.” Therefore belief of some kind in the mystery of Christ’s Incarnation was necessary at all times and for all persons, but this belief differed according to differences of times and persons. The reason of this is that before the state of sin, man believed, explicitly in Christ’s Incarnation, in so far as it was intended for the consummation of glory, but not as it was intended to deliver man from sin by the Passion and Resurrection, since man had no foreknowledge of his future sin. He does, however, seem to have had foreknowledge of the Incarnation of Christ, from the fact that he said (Genesis 2:24): “Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife,” of which the Apostle says (Ephesians 5:32) that “this is a great sacrament . . . in Christ and the Church,” and it is incredible that the first man was ignorant about this sacrament.

But after sin, man believed explicitly in Christ, not only as to the Incarnation, but also as to the Passion and Resurrection, whereby the human race is delivered from sin and death: for they would not, else, have foreshadowed Christ’s Passion by certain sacrifices both before and after the Law, the meaning of which sacrifices was known by the learned explicitly, while the simple folk, under the veil of those sacrifices, believed them to be ordained by God in reference to Christ’s coming, and thus their knowledge was covered with a veil, so to speak. And, as stated above (Question 1, Article 7), the nearer they were to Christ, the more distinct was their knowledge of Christ’s mysteries.

After grace had been revealed, both learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above (Question 1, Article 8). As to other minute points in reference to the articles of the Incarnation, men have been bound to believe them more or less explicitly according to each one’s state and office.
(ST II-II.2.7, co.)

If this is all more or less agreeable, we have enough to work with to say a little about the prospect of the salvation for Jews. It is perhaps possible for a Jew today to have faith in Christ in a less explicit manner than we do because of limited revelation although this is complicated by the presence of the Church. If he has believed in what has been revealed by God to him according to his ability, it would make sense that he could be saved. On the other hand, Judaism today is such a diverse phenomenon. Furthermore, as far as I know, Judaism today is very different from Judaism (if you can call it that) at the time of people like Abraham or Moses, so it is impossible to say that Jews by virtue of their religion have the same faith as the Patriarchs. And it is even further complicated by the fact that Jews as a general rule not only do not have explicit faith in Christ, but explicitly deny him. I would say that the salvation of Jews (as a religious designation) would have to be an exceptional case rather than something to be taken for granted.
 
I don’t think the Old Covenant was really concerned with eternal salvation. It was more about the Israelites enjoying an abundant life within the borders of the earthly Promised Land.

As far as the eternal salvation of a particular Jew goes, like everyone else, if he loves God and dies in God’s friendship, he will be saved. The instant anyone manifests a love of God he receives the saving graces of a Christian baptism apart from the sacrament and, if he perseveres in his love of God and dies in God’s friendship, he will be saved. Check out St Thomas Aquinas’ teaching on baptism by desire or what he calls “Baptism of the Spirit” or “Baptism of Repentance” in his Summa Theologica, Part 3, Question 66, Article 11. Of course, anyone who knows in his heart that Jesus Christ is from God and that Jesus established the Catholic Church yet rejects them is not manifesting a love of God, is he?
I think we can and ought to say that the Old Covenant was concerned with eternal salvation, only that it could not grant it in itself. The Old Covenant pointed to the New Covenant (“Christ is the end of the law”) so the saints under the Old Covenant received grace through their faith in the Christ who was to come. Consider, for example, St. Thomas’s teaching on circumcision.

We must say, therefore, that grace was bestowed in circumcision as to all the effects of grace, but not as in Baptism. Because in Baptism grace is bestowed by the very power of Baptism itself, which power Baptism has as the instrument of Christ’s Passion already consummated. Whereas circumcision bestowed grace, inasmuch as it was a sign of faith in Christ’s future Passion: so that the man who was circumcised, professed to embrace that faith; whether, being an adult, he made profession for himself, or, being a child, someone else made profession for him. Hence, too, the Apostle says (Romans 4:11), that Abraham “received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the justice of the faith”: because, to wit, justice was of faith signified: not of circumcision signifying. And since Baptism operates instrumentally by the power of Christ’s Passion, whereas circumcision does not, therefore Baptism imprints a character that incorporates man in Christ, and bestows grace more copiously than does circumcision; since greater is the effect of a thing already present, than of the hope thereof.
(ST III.70.4, co.)
 
But they have been saved. The title of the thread is “Are the Jews saved…”

We are not concerned with whether they went to Heaven immediately after death or only after Christ opened Heaven. They are in Heaven now and that means that they are saved.

Everyone keeps telling me that the sacraments are an absolute requirement for salvation. The question I am trying to find an answer to is how a Jew like Elijah be saved when he never received a single sacrament. The only answers I have received are “That was the old covenant, this is the new covenant” and “By the merits of Christ.”

So why can’t the merits of Christ be applied to a Jew today, or why can’t a Jew today who abides by the old covenant be saved like Elijah?

-Tim-
There is no salvation assurance for anyone while alive, including Christians. Whether you are saved or not depends on the state of your soul at death.
Anyone (Jews or whoever) who reject Christ and die unrepentant are not saved.
 
There is no salvation assurance for anyone while alive, including Christians. Whether you are saved or not depends on the state of your soul at death.
Anyone (Jews or whoever) who reject Christ and die unrepentant are not saved.
I agree.

However this belief is pre Vatican II. I’m still confused what pope Francis believes. Has he explicitly stated that he wants Jews converted?
 
Acts 3:17-23New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

17 Now I know, brothers, that you acted out of ignorance,[a] just as your leaders did; 18 but God has thus brought to fulfillment what he had announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets,** that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, therefore, and be converted], that your sins may be wiped away, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of universal restoration[d] of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old. 22 For Moses said:[e]

‘A prophet like me will the Lord, your God, raise up for you
from among your own kinsmen; to him you shall listen in all that he may say to you. 23 Everyone who does not listen to that prophet
will be cut off from the people.

Hebrews 8:13 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

13 In speaking of “a new covenant,” he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.**
 
I agree.

However this belief is pre Vatican II. I’m still confused what pope Francis believes. Has he explicitly stated that he wants Jews converted?
It’s also post-Vatican II. The Church has no right to change such a basic doctrine of the faith as the universal call to conversion and salvation. I can’t find anything authoritative to the contrary. Unless Pope Francis says otherwise (in which case he would be wrong), charity demands we presume he believes this too. As I said before, Pope Francis speaks a great deal about helping all people to know and love Christ because of His love and mercy and the true salvation and joy Jesus brings to those who know Him–do you think Pope Francis would want to deny this to the Jewish people, who remain dear to God on account of their fathers? That would be pretty hateful of him or at the least severely misguided, and he doesn’t seem like that kind of person to me.

It should also be pointed out that the universal call to conversion and salvation is not supposed to be used as a bludgeon to hit people over the head with, nor is it to be used to cast rash judgments or to disdain those who have not yet answered the call. It urges us to love others and shows us the pinnacle of that love, sharing the gift of salvation. Likewise, there are many ways to evangelize and to kindle the flame of grace in men’s hearts other than going around telling people to repent or burn (sometimes this is appropriate, but sometimes other means are better).
 
We are definitely meant to evangelise Jews. Jews cannot be saved without conversion - nobody can. The old law will not save them. This is the teaching of the Church. All Jews, if they are not converted before death, will go hell.
What about Baptism by desire?
 
Baptism of desire presumes conversion. It is where your heart is changed even though you have not received the sacrament yet.
 
Pope Francis has stated that the old covenant with the Jewish people has never been revoked. In his latest exhortation, the Pope did not state that the Jewish people should be converted?

So are Jews saved without converting to catholicism?
To those who have received much, much is required, and to those who have received less, less is required. You are responsible to that which you receive. The Orthodox/Eastern and Catholic Churches are more responsible to what they are taught. The Jewish people are not that responsible to the Catholic doctrine since they still retain to the Old Testament beliefs only. God than deals with them accordingly to what they are responsible to.
 
Pope Francis has stated that the old covenant with the Jewish people has never been revoked. In his latest exhortation, the Pope did not state that the Jewish people should be converted?

So are Jews saved without converting to catholicism?
ANYONE can be saved without formally converting to Catholicism.

It is not absolutely necessary for anyone to be a formal member of the Catholic Church in order to be saved.

However, it is normatively necessary that everyone be a formal member of the Catholic Church in order to be saved.

Details here:

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3447
 
To those who have received much, much is required, and to those who have received less, less is required. You are responsible to that which you receive. The Orthodox/Eastern and Catholic Churches are more responsible to what they are taught. The Jewish people are not that responsible to the Catholic doctrine since they still retain to the Old Testament beliefs only. God than deals with them accordingly to what they are responsible to.
Evangelical Christians all over the world are screaming bloody murder right now! lol
 
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