Are laws against same sex sexual activity just laws?

[Peter_J]

And that is the problem with religious and cultural beliefs. Lucky we live in a Western society where women, gays and other religions are treated with dignity and respect by most people, including Islamic believers.

After reading your post, I did a thought experiment: suppose that this forum were a country rather than an electronic platform. My conclusion is that I would choose to live in the US rather than that hypothetical country. (Same conclusion if the experiment were done with any of the other forums that I’ve been on.)

 

[Vico]

Hey, everyone. I subscribe to the Human Rights Watch page on Facebook and I went to their site through one of their posts. It was about some gay men who had been arrested in Indonesia for gay sex. Apparently, an anti-pornography law was used to arrest them. Here is the link:

hrw.org/news/2017/05/04/indonesia-gay-porn-arrests-threaten-privacy

I also know that in other countries such as Saudi Arabia, same-sex sexual relations are illegal. Are such laws just laws or unjust laws? My first impression would be that since nobody has a right to engage in immoral sexual activity that these laws are just laws but I am not entirely sure if my interpretation is correct so I thought I would ask here.

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH – LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS (1986, Cardinal Ratzinger)

There is an effort in some countries to manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil-statutes and laws. This is done in order to conform to these pressure groups’ concept that homosexuality is at least a completely harmless, if not an entirely good, thing. Even when the practice of homosexuality may seriously threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people, its advocates remain undeterred and refuse to consider the magnitude of the risks involved.

The Church can never be so callous. It is true that her clear position cannot be revised by pressure from civil legislation or the trend of the moment. But she is really concerned about the many who are not represented by the pro-homosexual movement and about those who may have been tempted to believe its deceitful propaganda. She is also aware that the view that homosexual activity is equivalent to, or as acceptable as, the sexual expression of conjugal love has a direct impact on society’s understanding of the nature and rights of the family and puts them in jeopardy.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

 

[reggieM]

You are straying from the topic, i.e. just laws. No one can control what a person believes so at times the state needs laws that support tolerance of minorities. Such laws are JUST while laws that promote intolerance are UNJUST regardless of the country.

You’re using tolerance as a universal good that all countries must accept. But every country has intolerance for something. Are you saying that if a minority of people believe something to be good, then the society has to tolerate it, no matter what it is?

The reason for tolerance is that we have multiple religious beliefs and multiple subcultures within our society. I am lucky to live in a western society where I have a voice in promoting tolerance, those living in SA do not have the option to change unjust laws.

Yes, but you may be wanting to change the laws in ways that other people feel are unjust. You are willing to accept and tolerate behaviors that you disagree with or think are immoral - but are protected by the law. Doesn’t that say something about your own sense of justice? What if the laws changed to support something that you totally oppose?

 

[frobert]

You’re using tolerance as a universal good that all countries must accept.

I am using tolerance as one consideration for just laws, obviously there are many others that lawmakers use.

But every country has intolerance for something.

Islamic countries tend to have laws that discriminate against women. I can’t speak for others, but I believe such laws are unjust.

Are you saying that if a minority of people believe something to be good, then the society has to tolerate it, no matter what it is?

Not at all. If you have a particular example in mind let’s examine the merits or lack of merits
.

Yes, but you may be wanting to change the laws in ways that other people feel are unjust.

When laws change, the change is likely to advantage some and disadvantage others. If SA were to change laws that discriminate against women I am sure many men will feel the new laws are unjust.

You are willing to accept and tolerate behaviors that you disagree with or think are immoral - but are protected by the law.

Just laws are not about what I and my cohorts personally disagree with but rather an attempt to strike harmony with the rights of all.

Sure, I am offended by some laws yet don’t think change would affect anything other than my feelings. On the other hand there laws favoring corporations at the expense of individuals which I believe largely contributed to Trump being elected. It sent a message but unfortunately I believe it will change much, but that is a topic for another day.

Doesn’t that say something about your own sense of justice? What if the laws changed to support something that you totally oppose?

It seems you want to pigeon hole me. As I mentioned before I am lucky to live in a western country where if I and others can advocate for change.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Sex with Children?

[My friends who support same sex activity have never heard of NAMBLA.]

 

[Otar_Mendes]

un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Everything you need to know in regard to this topic and whether throwing gay people to prisons and persecuting them in other awful ways is a just and moral thing to do.

If you are against The Universal Declaration of Human Rights you are officially the enemy of mankind and must be dealt with accordingly.

 

[Rau]

un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Everything you need to know in regard to this topic and whether throwing gay people to prisons and persecuting them in other awful ways is a just and moral thing to do.

If you are against The Universal Declaration of Human Rights you are officially the enemy of mankind and must be dealt with accordingly.

The declaration is not too specific in this area. Would it oppose a law forbidding fornication generally, let alone same sex sexual activity? Perhaps article 12 re: privacy might be invoked?

It’s interesting that Article 16 references marriage in the conventional sense. I imagine there are moves afoot to change that!

 

[Peter_J]

Everything you need to know in regard to this topic and whether throwing gay people to prisons and persecuting them in other awful ways is a just and moral thing to do.

Many things that the alt-right consider “just and moral” are things I wouldn’t want to do.

 

[SyroMalankara]

And that is the problem with religious and cultural beliefs. Lucky we live in a Western society where women, gays and other religions are treated with dignity and respect by most people, including Islamic believers.

Do you believe that such a societal norm came ex nihilo, or was it due to the socio-political-religious culture that is at the foundation of Western society?

St. Augustine, post conversion, found sinful and abhorrent, but tolerated prostitution in his day. There are other examples of tolerating sin, so as to not burden society with an overhandedness of the law.

 

[Peter_J]

And that is the problem with religious and cultural beliefs.

I would say the problem is only when people go from being simply religious to being theocratic.