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Auntie_M
Guest
Forgive me, I was not trying to “correct”, just clarify.
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mozier
Guest
As a deacon candidate going through formation, I have seen the benefits of Lay Ministry, since our program combines the training of Permanent Deacons (clergy) with Lay Ministers (people who are not ordained, by rather appointed). So no, I do not believe that it detracts from vocations to the priesthood.
Keep in mind, also, that Lay Ministry is important since a trained and appointed (by the bishop) Lay Minister can cover things like Marriage Counseling, RCIA, Religious Education, Music, Financial Administration, Parish Leadership when there is no priest available to the parish, etc. This then allows the priests, deacons, and even bishops to concentrate more on the clerical and sacramental roles that they do.
The official role of Lay Minister is a developing one in the post-Vatican II church, and how it goes remains to be seen. One thing that should not be done, though, in my opinion, is blur the lines too much between the callings of clerical ministry and lay ministry. For example, I believe that Lay Ministers should not wear robes or such. Keep a distinction between the two in the most obvious ways and the rest will fall into line.
Keep in mind, also, that Lay Ministry is important since a trained and appointed (by the bishop) Lay Minister can cover things like Marriage Counseling, RCIA, Religious Education, Music, Financial Administration, Parish Leadership when there is no priest available to the parish, etc. This then allows the priests, deacons, and even bishops to concentrate more on the clerical and sacramental roles that they do.
The official role of Lay Minister is a developing one in the post-Vatican II church, and how it goes remains to be seen. One thing that should not be done, though, in my opinion, is blur the lines too much between the callings of clerical ministry and lay ministry. For example, I believe that Lay Ministers should not wear robes or such. Keep a distinction between the two in the most obvious ways and the rest will fall into line.
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Ad_Deum
Guest
Pax Christi
I’m not against other ministires within the church (e.g. music, religious education, youth…), but I’m not confident with the Lay Eucharistic Ministers because that ministry crossed the line between clergy and lay. This is a hard issue to solve right away cause there are alot of things involve and reasons to exposed on whay we have Lay Eucharistic Ministers… If a priest/pastor can do it (visiting of the sick, communion, etc.) why not, and if he could not its his own decision and planning…
Good day to all!
I’m not against other ministires within the church (e.g. music, religious education, youth…), but I’m not confident with the Lay Eucharistic Ministers because that ministry crossed the line between clergy and lay. This is a hard issue to solve right away cause there are alot of things involve and reasons to exposed on whay we have Lay Eucharistic Ministers… If a priest/pastor can do it (visiting of the sick, communion, etc.) why not, and if he could not its his own decision and planning…
Good day to all!
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atassina
Guest
The functions that are proper to a priest belong to a priest. Christ calls us all to be bringers of the Gospel to the world and to ourselves.
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CradleCath
Guest
My diocese has a history of liberalism & lay “participation” in the governance of the diocese. The secular “ministers”, deacons, liturgists, etc. who used to hang around our diocesan offices always reminded me of what I have read about the political hangers on of Boss Tweed & Tammany hall They controlled New York politics for generations. When we finally got a traditional Bishop…Bishop Finn, he truly cleaned house & appointed priests to the positions that had been filled with Lay favorites.
The actual article about his actions that came from NCR. has been “lost”, so I’ve had to use the site below to show proof of what I say. The actual article was called, “Bishop Finn Cleans House”. If anyone here can find it, please send me a link or post it here.
Secular or lay “ministers” can not take the place of priests, IMO.
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VJCadarr
Guest
Not at all. Plus, by virtue of our baptism, we are called to serve. What better place to minister to people than in the church?
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PBTY
Guest
Of course lay “ministries” are hurting priestly vocations. When everything is a dubbed a “ministry” (I’m waiting for the Change The Toilet Paper Roll In The Church Ministry to pop up), why would a young man considering the priestly vocation not think he wouldn’t be treated as just one of the many “ministers”. When I was on the Art & Environment Committee at my past parish they said I was a minister - which title I quickly corrected to say, no, a volunteer…not a minister!
Keep on usurping the roles and titles priests should be doing and we’ll see the numbers of priests keep dwindling and dwindling to zero. And then what will we be left with? A bunch of lay ministers and married deacons. Sounds like protestantism to me.
Keep on usurping the roles and titles priests should be doing and we’ll see the numbers of priests keep dwindling and dwindling to zero. And then what will we be left with? A bunch of lay ministers and married deacons. Sounds like protestantism to me.
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ElectricMayhem
Guest
Your quote: “The secular “ministers”, deacons, liturgists, etc. who used to hang around our diocesan offices always reminded me of what I have read about the political hangers on of Boss Tweed & Tammany hall They controlled New York politics for generations.”
So what sacrament do deacons receive and does the bible have any verses about the diaconate? C’mon
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VJCadarr
Guest
Deacons receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. I would compare deacons of today to elders of early Christianity. And, yes, there are plenty of references to elders in the Bible.
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Auntie_M
Guest
I really think having to listen to soo many “put downs” is the main thing that is hurting vocations. Things like…He allows this in his parish or he allows that in his parish…too many complaints and not enough praise for his life’s work. A priest makes quite a sacrifice to the people of his parish.
I just wonder how many of you would be willing to give your whole life to the priesthood? Big sacrifice, huh? Wouldn’t have time to spend on the net in this type of chats.
I just wonder how many of you would be willing to give your whole life to the priesthood? Big sacrifice, huh? Wouldn’t have time to spend on the net in this type of chats.
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Ockham
Guest
Aunty M, did you notice this post? I remember you challenging this report in another thread as you’ve been to NO Masses throughout the Carolinas and Florida and only see reverence.The only problem I have with Extra Ordinary Eucharistic Ministers is that in some parishes, the privilege is abused. I’ve seen a Celebrant take a seat while Ministers were distributing Holy Communion…
If we drag the role of priest down to a consecrator of hosts, then their irrelevancy will bring about their extinction. The EMHCs are the clearest example. Holy Communion is a sacrament and only priests are authorized to dispense them. Lay people storming the sanctuary during the Angus Dei is a travesty and undermines belief in the Real Presence.
Young people would be attracted to the seminaries if the dignity of the priesthood was reestablished. Why do you think the SSPX and FSSP seminaries are full and the NO are closing?
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Ockham
Guest
Exactly. The Bugnini mess desecrated a centuries old tradition (Tridentine Mass) with Protestant features (ad populus, venacular, masonic clamshells). Our true Mass is an expression of our faith, the Catholic faith.
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PaulinVA
Guest
I agree 100%.
However, it’s not the laity that have tarnished the dignity of the priesthood.
I agree that there are way too many EMHCs and that they are used in an ordinary fashion.
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Auntie_M
Guest
Oh, I’m sorry, didn’t know the statistics were out there on the “fullness” of the SSPX or FSSP and the closings of the NO seminaries. Where did you find them, I’d like to read them?
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Ockham
Guest
“But the Rev. Raymond F. Collins, dean of the school of religious studies at the Catholic University of America, in Washington, said he thought that the trend toward enrollment stability was not evenly spread among seminaries and instead reflected an increase in enrollment at conservative institutions.”
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0CE0D8133BF934A25757C0A96F958260
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0CE0D8133BF934A25757C0A96F958260
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Ockham
Guest
Who then?
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Auntie_M
Guest
Dear Cradle
The “article” showing proof is not quite proof enough. This is a blog written by a “Quintero” on May 12, 2006. Hardly sound proof.
Actually, The Vatican called for a reorganizing of the St. Joseph’s and Kansas City"s Dioceses. This was combining the two and in doing so had to move some priests to different locations. It was not the “cleaning house” you describe. This reorganizing took place in 1956 when Bishop LeBlond was the Bishop, followed by Bishop Cody. Bishop Finn followed after these. As every Bishop moves from one diocese to another, there are alway changes. Just as in any corporation, the new CEO makes his changes.
Please make sure you are spreading true and correct rumors. I’m sure you didn’t realize this was not.
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Auntie_M
Guest
I would venture to say, (and this is personal opinion), that the scandals of the priests’ abusive behaviors had alot to do with the decline of vocations. The cost to our church to settle these lawsuits closed alot of our churches. Bad publicity ruins alot of reputations.
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Trick
Guest
I believe most churches use entirely too many EMHC’s at Mass, I feel we need to re-install altar rails in every church across the land. All those receiving Our Lord can and should make the walk to the front of the church and receive Jesus kneeling in reverence.( Special arrangements can always be made for the elderly or the sick ) It may take a little longer, but than again what better place to spend your time than in church !
In most cases it should be only priests or deacons,giving communion.
By the way I praise the EMHC’s that I know, they are only doing what they have been asked to do to help out, most of those that are asked to serve are the most devout people I know and often are daily communicants.They are just being much over used at Mass, but I think it is great when they are used to take our Lord to the sick and shut-ins.
Trick
In most cases it should be only priests or deacons,giving communion.
By the way I praise the EMHC’s that I know, they are only doing what they have been asked to do to help out, most of those that are asked to serve are the most devout people I know and often are daily communicants.They are just being much over used at Mass, but I think it is great when they are used to take our Lord to the sick and shut-ins.
Trick
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PaulinVA
Guest
The US priesthood is riddled with scandal. Those that weren’t caught in the child abuse scandal still have done plenty to hurt the dignity of the priesthood.
In my diocese, there have been child pornography scandals and multiple embezzlement cases. When pastors start naming parish halls after themselves, while they are pastor, you have a problem.
I have friends who are priests, but I have to say that I wonder what they do in private. That’s a terrible thing to say, but I’m being honest.
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