Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

[Stephen168]

… like saying that Christ has “two natures and two wills.”

So there it is. I think the creeds are an abomination because they are not just simple statements of belief. They combine simple statement with philosophical speculations, which wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t treated as inviolable.

Which creeds are you talking about?

 

[why_me]

I am formerly LDS. You say you are not Protestant, but all of your orientation, attitudes, KJV bible, and world view are extremely 19th century Protestant. Mormons are more puritan than the Puritans. I see Mormonism as a natural outgrowth of 19th-century American Individualist Protestantism run amok.

All of Joseph Smith’s teachings (BoM, BoA, D&C, etc) are just confirmations of Protestant American folk magic and the popular American Protestant notions of the day (Indians as lost Israelites, buried treasure *, restoration of the “original Christian Church”, spiritualism and visions, seer stones, charismatic prophets, abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, meat and hot drinks, etc).

Paul*

This is not exactly true. The protestant faiths at the time of JS would never consider the mormon church a protestant sect. From the very beginning the lds church was a church apart from the crowd.

JS could be considered an innovator or a revolutionary by those who are not lds and not bias. JS took christianity to new levels. One does not have to agree with him but all should see his genius.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

This is not exactly true. The protestant faiths at the time of JS would never consider the mormon church a protestant sect. From the very beginning the lds church was a church apart from the crowd.

JS could be considered an innovator or a revolutionary by those who are not lds and not bias. JS took christianity to new levels. One does not have to agree with him but all should see his genius.

Good morning Why me,

I would offer you that Elvis Presley took music to new levels and one should atleast credit him with genius. He also offered people a very different " flavor ".

So is it your contention that " marketing ’ or " being a church apart from the crowd" is what gives Mormanism it’s appeal for potential followers???

God bless,
Carl

 

[why_me]

Good morning Why me,

I would offer you that Elvis Presley took music to new levels and one should atleast credit him with genius. He also offered people a very different " flavor ".

So is it your contention that " marketing ’ or " being a church apart from the crowd" is what gives Mormanism it’s appeal for potential followers???

God bless,
Carl

No that it is not my contention at all. Being a church apart is not the reason for the appeal of mormonism. What gives Mormonism its appeal is stories like this one in the recent July issue of the lds church magazine ‘Ensign’:

Did Jesus Really Visit the Americas?

By Carlos René Romero

Carlos René Romero, “Did Jesus Really Visit the Americas?,” Ensign, July 2008, 73

In 1960 I met a young man at a party who told me that Jesus Christ had visited the Americas after His Resurrection. I found the idea incredible and wanted to know more, so I began searching in libraries and inquiring of the various religious denominations in my hometown of San Miguel, El Salvador.

I searched for almost three years but found nothing. When I mentioned to various religious leaders that I had heard of Christ’s coming to the Americas, they told me I had been deceived. Because my search turned up no information, I eventually came to believe they were right.

One day two missionaries from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints came to my home and said they had an important message for my family. I immediately remembered my previous inquiries and asked them, “Do you know if Jesus Christ came to the Americas?”

One of the young men said, “We bear witness of that.”

At that moment I felt a great excitement in my mind and heart, and I asked, “How do you know that?”

He took a book out of his bag and said, “We know Christ came here because of this book, the Book of Mormon.”

What the missionaries taught me during that first discussion troubled me, and I doubted the account of the Prophet Joseph Smith’s vision of the Father and the Son. However, the Book of Mormon intrigued me, and the missionaries kept teaching me the lessons.

One afternoon, the elders asked me, “Have you prayed to find out if what we are teaching you is true?”

I told them I had done so but had not obtained an answer.

“You must pray with real intent,” they said.

I had been reading the Book of Mormon for several nights and had read about and believed in Jesus Christ’s appearance to the Nephites, but I still could not accept Joseph Smith’s vision. My internal struggle was terrible.

One night I knelt alone and opened my heart to God. I told Him that I needed to know if He had really manifested Himself to Joseph Smith. If He had, I promised Him I would be baptized into the Church and serve Him all my life.

When I arose early the next morning, the answer came to me through the Holy Ghost. My mind cleared, and my heart filled with peace. From that moment on, I have had no doubts whatsoever that Joseph Smith truly was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer.

I know that Christ came to the Americas after His Resurrection. My soul delights in this marvelous knowledge, taught to me with certainty by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The lds church would have fallen flat from the very beginning if not for such experiences with the holy ghost. And this is what makes the lds church a strong church with many committed members.

Because the contentiousness between mormonism and other christian faiths, the genius of JS is often overlooked. If he was not a prophet, he was certainly a religious genius who expanded christian doctrine, built temples and cities and founded a flourishing religious community. And he died young, much before his time.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

The lds church would have fallen flat from the very beginning if not for such experiences with the holy ghost. And this is what makes the lds church a strong church with many committed members.

Because the contentiousness between mormonism and other christian faiths, the genius of JS is often overlooked. If he was not a prophet, he was certainly a religious genius who expanded christian doctrine, built temples and cities and founded a flourishing religious community. And he died young, much before his time.

Hi again Why me,

First, thank you for your time as well as your response to me.

My reactions to your comments ( If I may )

Many religions ( beliefs ) have not fallen flat and indeed continue to flourish having nothing to to with truth rather, in my opinion, having to do with a very inviting and appetizing dish that is being offered to all of us broken people ( Me included ).

As to your comment of " JS maybe not being a prophet, atleast he was a religious genius who is credited with building temples, founding a thriving religious community and expanding Christian doctrine". IS EXACTLY MY CONTENTION.

If he was merely a " genius " ( I would not use that word to describe him ) and indeed not a prophet, What authority or " right " would he or any of us have to " expand " or change the very word of Jesus. That seems to me ( with respect ) to be the height of arrogance.

I will readily agree with you that the Morman community ( In my very narrow scope living in Michigan ) seems to be very suppotive of eachother, kind, generous, devout, and willing to share what they believe in a loving manner. ( I must offer that this does not make it true, rather mislead. ( sorry if that was offensive )

At any rate, I do appreciate your contributions.

God bless,
Carl

 

[RC_Matt]

This is not exactly true. The protestant faiths at the time of JS would never consider the mormon church a protestant sect. From the very beginning the lds church was a church apart from the crowd.

JS could be considered an innovator or a revolutionary by those who are not lds and not bias. JS took christianity to new levels. One does not have to agree with him but all should see his genius.

Well, I partially agree with you, Mormons are most definitely not Protestants. Protestant Churches are Christian faiths that arose from and subsequent to the reformation. Mormonism is not a Christian faith, therefore cannot be considered a Protestant tradition. Many, probably most, Mormons live what we would call “Christian” lives and are therefore “saved” in accordance with Catholic doctrine (implicit Christians); but the faith itself is non-Abrahamic and is in a category by itself, like Buddhism. Mormons did not consider themselves Christians until fairly recently; but now insist on being called Christians, presumably to appear more mainstream to potential converts. Same motivation as 'Milk Before Meat."

 

[AMDGtoo]

Did Jesus Really Visit the Americas?

By Carlos René Romero

Carlos René Romero, “Did Jesus Really Visit the Americas?,” Ensign, July 2008, 73

In 1960 I met a young man at a party who told me that Jesus Christ had visited the Americas after His Resurrection. I found the idea incredible and wanted to know more, so I began searching in libraries and inquiring of the various religious denominations in my hometown of San Miguel, El Salvador.

I searched for almost three years but found nothing. When I mentioned to various religious leaders that I had heard of Christ’s coming to the Americas, they told me I had been deceived. Because my search turned up no information, I eventually came to believe they were right.

One day two missionaries from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints came to my home and said they had an important message for my family. I immediately remembered my previous inquiries and asked them, “Do you know if Jesus Christ came to the Americas?”

One of the young men said, “We bear witness of that.”

At that moment I felt a great excitement in my mind and heart, and I asked, “How do you know that?”

He took a book out of his bag and said, “We know Christ came here because of this book, the Book of Mormon.”

What the missionaries taught me during that first discussion troubled me, and I doubted the account of the Prophet Joseph Smith’s vision of the Father and the Son. However, the Book of Mormon intrigued me, and the missionaries kept teaching me the lessons.

One afternoon, the elders asked me, “Have you prayed to find out if what we are teaching you is true?”

I told them I had done so but had not obtained an answer.

“You must pray with real intent,” they said.

I had been reading the Book of Mormon for several nights and had read about and believed in Jesus Christ’s appearance to the Nephites, but I still could not accept Joseph Smith’s vision. My internal struggle was terrible.

One night I knelt alone and opened my heart to God. I told Him that I needed to know if He had really manifested Himself to Joseph Smith. If He had, I promised Him I would be baptized into the Church and serve Him all my life.

When I arose early the next morning, the answer came to me through the Holy Ghost. My mind cleared, and my heart filled with peace. From that moment on, I have had no doubts whatsoever that Joseph Smith truly was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer.

I know that Christ came to the Americas after His Resurrection. My soul delights in this marvelous knowledge, taught to me with certainty by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Oh my goodness. That’s any sort of concrete evidence. That’s simply taking the word of some people. It would be about the same thing as hearing an acquaintance raving about a certain product and later hearing yet another acquainteance mention something similar, and so believing it even when reviews of the product, conducted by researchers, say quite the opposite. It’s hearsay. Not admissable in a court of law. And a “self-fulfillment”–it’s simply a person wanting to believe so badly that he answers his own answer simply by believing the unproven claim.

 

[ljahns]

I am paid by Karl Keating to post here. He thinks this place would be too boring if I wasn’t around!

zerinus

Just another non-answer to a serious question. Shoulda known.

 

[ljahns]

A woman can be a prophet (prophetess) if she has that spiritual gift. But the President of our Church is more than just a prophet. He is called the “Prophet” in popular talk; but he is a lot more than that. To cut out the jargon, he is the Presiding High Priest that presides over the whole Church. That is a position that can only be held by a male.

zerinus

Thanks zerinus. Makes sense.

 

[1holycatholic]

A woman can be a prophet (prophetess) if she has that spiritual gift. But the President of our Church is more than just a prophet. He is called the “Prophet” in popular talk; but he is a lot more than that. To cut out the jargon, he is the Presiding High Priest that presides over the whole Church. That is a position that can only be held by a male.

Until ongoing revelation says otherwise.

 

[zerinus]

Many religions ( beliefs ) have not fallen flat and indeed continue to flourish having nothing to to with truth rather, in my opinion, having to do with a very inviting and appetizing dish that is being offered to all of us broken people ( Me included ).

Actually that is not true. Most faddish religions movements that have started in recent history have had only short bursts of success, followed by rapid decline. Take the JWs for example. They had short period of progress, and now they are in morbid decline. Or even take the many breakaway movements of Mormonism. There have been quite a few of those in the course of LDS history; but they have come to nothing. The most successful of those was the formerly known RLDS Church (now called the Community of Christ). They have broken in half, and are now in rapid decline. The LDS Church is the only one that has had steady progress since it was first orginaized.

As to your comment of " JS maybe not being a prophet, atleast he was a religious genius who is credited with building temples, founding a thriving religious community and expanding Christian doctrine". IS EXACTLY MY CONTENTION.

If he was merely a " genius " ( I would not use that word to describe him ) and indeed not a prophet, What authority or " right " would he or any of us have to " expand " or change the very word of Jesus. That seems to me ( with respect ) to be the height of arrogance.

Then I have good news for you! Joseph Smith was much more than a genius. He certainly was a genius—but a lot more besides. He was a true prophet; and the Book of Mormon that he translated by the gift and power of God is true.

zerinus

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Then I have good news for you! Joseph Smith was much more than a genius. He certainly was a genius—but a lot more besides. He was a true prophet; and the Book of Mormon that he translated by the gift and power of God is true.

zerinus

Below please find a prophesy by Joseph Smith:

3 Which city shall be abuilt, beginning at the btemple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and cdedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city aNew Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which btemple shall be creared in this dgeneration.
5 For verily this generation shall not all apass away until an bhouse shall be built unto the Lord, and a ccloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the dglory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

The mormon posters have argued that they haven’t had enough time to complete this prophesy yet and it could not be considered a false prophesy because that generation had not yet passed, because some members were “translated” (it’s been over 160 years since this prophesy was made). I’d like to point out, as emphasized above, the temple was to be dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, who we all know did not translate but died in a gunfight.

One failed prophesy makes a false prophet.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[BDawg]

Which Creed are you talking about?

3rd Council of Constantinople, 680 AD.

 

[BDawg]

So Joseph Smith thought that all creeds (that means every one of ours too) were abominations because they weren’t simple? Is it just possible that Joseph Smith was simply mistaken?

You see, if there is any Creed that is simple, it is the Apostles’ Creed which was composed from the Biblical baptismal formulas of the early Church. This Creed was probably composed about 200 A.D. and it is so simple that it is used in Masses for children in lieu of the more refined Nicene Creed (which addressed a certain heresy of the time back when it was first agreed upon in a Council) normally used at all Masses.

The Apostles’ Creed consists of nine sentences and for those who don’t know it, it is as follows:

"I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
His only Son, our Lord.

He was conceived by the
power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.

He suffered under Pontius
Pilate, was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended to the dead.

On the third day He rose again.

He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the
right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting."

As far as what Nan said, I’m still “in the dark” about how her statements are false and misrepresent Mormonism when the statements have been admitted as being true.

Hi AMDG,

I have no problem with the Apostles’ Creed. I think “their creeds are an abomination” was a general statement that doesn’t apply to all creeds equally, or to all statements in the creeds equally.

 

[BDawg]

why did you think that was put-down? How is telling you to follow Jesus a put down? What the ???

You’re alright in my book B*DAWG, I have nothing against people who are mormon, ya know, my entire family is mormon. It is your church that has led you astray.

Thank you, Rebecca,

I’m sorry I took it the wrong way.

 

[BDawg]

None of these are creeds. It’s creeds you say are an abomination and disallow further revelation. Are you looking to expand the scope of abomination

I was talking about how creeds are used.

 

[BDawg]

Oh, please. Let’s see who is quoting out of context here. Jacob 2:30 makes no reference whatsoever to conditional approval to periodic polygamy. The entire passage condemns the practice. Read the verses before and after to see the context.

Thank you, Nan, for providing the whole passage. All I can say is that I can’t understand how you read this passage. I’ll let anyone who reads this judge for themselves.

 

[ibkc]

I was talking about how creeds are used.

So, you think it is wrong to have definitive statements of faith? You’d rather go through life thinking that there is no such thing as objective truth?

Mormons: the first postmodernists.

 

[BDawg]

To be an LDS prophet you have to be ordained in the LDS priesthood.

But women can have the gift of prophecy.

 

[BDawg]

Mormons: the first postmodernists.

Hi ibkc

I don’t think you were interpreting my intent correctly, but there may be some truth to your last comment, there. I have studied the “philosophy of science” extensively, and I have been amazed by how closely the Mormon treatment of religious knowledge parallels our understanding of how scientific knowledge is gained. The current dominant view of the philosophy of science certainly has a few elements of “postmodernism” in it.