Are LDS Protestants or are they separate?

[hosemonkey]

So no, I don’t get paid for posting messages here. I wish I did! Imagine how much money I could have made if I got a dollar for each post!

zerinus

It is a good thing that you are not depending on me to pay you. I would have fired you long ago. You are not skilled at ordinary apologetics, although I will admit that you are extremely skilled at mormon “apologetics”, which consists of incredible feats of tapdancing, evasion, obfuscation, equivocation and peverication, evading the question and quibbling. In these areas, you shine.

 

[1holycatholic]

However, I will inform you that **there is no such thing **as being a “paid member” of the Church.

They are very few. There are some who necessarily devote their whole time to the Church, and they get a very small amount of money for their support, which is usually a lot less than they would be getting if they worked in their chosen fields of profession.

You’re a tap dancer, aren’t you?

 

[hosemonkey]

I understand, it appears you’ve said too much already. If it hadn’t been for your obstinance, I might never had dug deep enough to find the real truth behind the failed prophesy. At least I did get the truth on Joseph Smith.

One failed prophesy, makes a false prophet.

zerinus, I am disappointed in you. I thought that you had some courage. Guess that I was wrong. Here is somebody who gets the goods on your “prophet” and you slink off with your tail between your legs. If you had simply acknowleged the truth, the truth that JS was no prophet at all, you would have looked a lot better. Too bad.
Score
Christians 1

mormons 0

 

[hosemonkey]

They are very few. There are some who necessarily devote their whole time to the Church, and they get a very small amount of money for their support, which is usually a lot less than they would be getting if they worked in their chosen fields of profession. What is certain is that we have absolutely no professional clergy

. That is to say, nobody ever goes to college or the seminary to train to become a lifelong Mormon cleric. No such thing exists. People who rise to the top and have to devote their whole time to the work of the Church are always very successful men of varying professions; and they have to sacrifice a lot financially to give up their professions to become fultime officers of the Church. And they are a tiny minority compared to the rest of the clerical ministry of the Church, who do not get paid at all. On the contrary, they even contribute financially to the Church by their tithes and offerings, as other Church members are required to do.

zerinus

If that is really the case, then the mormon “church” is cheap as well as false. Any outfit pulling in as much unaccounted-for cash as the LSD “church” should be paying quite handsomely. Also, looks to me that the men who run that outfit are well past retirement age, so I see no financial “hardship.”

 

[JTBT]

This always made me wonder if the Latter-Day Saints are Protestants. In my opinion they are not…

separate

 

[AMDGtoo]

One failed prophesy, makes a false prophet.

Yes, but you have to consider the that “prophesy” may not mean what today’s people may mean. Nowadays a prophet is someone who tells the future, but it’s possible that they are using the word a different way–the same way they say that something is scripture and therefore cannot be prophecy. I’m not joking, it’s just confusing. Mormons are so diffferent, that even the words we both use have different meanings. And since that is so, the question becomes not that they are “tap dancing” but are they aware of the confusion caused and to what end is it being played up.

Oh, about the paid clergy. Well I know about some of the “perks” given to Mormons in general–steep discounts, “our turn to feed the missionaries”, “volunteer” callings that take up massive time and dollars of the “Mormon in the pew” but can’t be refused, etc. but I have had times where the missionaries that come calling have left cards saying that they are paying for the mission, and my convert-to-Mormon daughter’s FIL did a 5 year stint as bishop and was neither paid nor received any training for the job. Now I learn that some are paid as well? Hmmm–I bet not too many know about that, enough to deny it out-of-hand.

 

[Nan_S]

So no, I don’t get paid for posting messages here. I wish I did! Imagine how much money I could have made if I got a dollar for each post!

zerinus

LOL. 3448 posts since Sep 06 = average 5 posts per day. At $1 per post that would buy you lunch every day at McDonalds (if you stuck to the dollar menu), with nothing left over for gasoline.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes, but you have to consider the that “prophesy” may not mean what today’s people may mean. Nowadays a prophet is someone who tells the future, but it’s possible that they are using the word a different way–the same way they say that something is scripture and therefore cannot be prophecy. I’m not joking, it’s just confusing. Mormons are so diffferent, that even the words we both use have different meanings. And since that is so, the question becomes not that they are “tap dancing” but are they aware of the confusion caused and to what end is it being played up.

Oh, about the paid clergy. Well I know about some of the “perks” given to Mormons in general–steep discounts, “our turn to feed the missionaries”, “volunteer” callings that take up massive time and dollars of the “Mormon in the pew” but can’t be refused, etc. but I have had times where the missionaries that come calling have left cards saying that they are paying for the mission, and my convert-to-Mormon daughter’s FIL did a 5 year stint as bishop and was neither paid nor received any training for the job. Now I learn that some are paid as well? Hmmm–I bet not too many know about that, enough to deny it out-of-hand.

I’ll trust your judgement of the argument.

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1

Originally Posted by zerinus
I have learned by experience that it is not worth the time and effort it takes to answer your questions; but I will briefly answer this one so that you (or other people) don’t think I am dodging it. That scripture is not a prophecy, nor a prediction

; it is a commandment. The word “shall” does not make it a prediction. It is like the clause “Thou shalt not kill” in the Ten Commandments. It is not a prediction that you will not kill. It is a commandment not to kill. The same goes for that verse. The fact that it was a commandment, not a prediction, is made clear in another passage in the Doctrine and Covenants, as follows:

zerinus

I went back to the Doctrines and Covenants 84 and included a few more of the “verses”:

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith

, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this dgeneration.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

Now, it appears, according to Joseph Smith it was a revelation of the Lord as he spoken by the mouth of his prophets…

Who’s wrong now, zerinus or Joseph Smith?

One false prophesy, makes a false prophet
.

This is how to recognize a false prophet:

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.(KJV)

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[hosemonkey]

“volunteer” callings that take up massive time and dollars of the “Mormon in the pew” but can’t be refused, etc. but I have had times where the missionaries that come calling have left cards saying that they are paying for the mission, and my convert-to-Mormon daughter’s FIL did a 5 year stint as bishop and was neither paid nor received any training for the job.

You just pointed up two serious flaws in the mormon scheme.

1. “Volunteer” callings that can’t be refused.
2. “5 year stint as “bishop” with neither pay nor training.”

I have a rather devout mormon aquaintance who, after his retirement from civil service, was “assigned” to pick apples for the local mormon packing plant. Assigned. He told them what to do with their “assignment” and is now a very “jack” mormon. I applauded his grit.

The fact that their 'bishops" are neither trained nor paid causes me to question their qualifications for the job. In the Catholic Church, one does not become a Bishop by being a slouch, years of prayer, study and dedication is necessary.

1. Volunteering should come from the heart.
2. I would hate to be at the mercy of some " part-time bishop." Maybe a druggist with delusions of grandeur.

 

[Stephen168]

Hi Stephen,

I’m not sure what you are talking about. How was I “lying”?

Let me explain

You were asked:

Your link references the Thirteen Articles of Faith and so I looked that up and read it. How is it not a creed?

The question seemed to show Joseph Smith as a hypocrite. All creeds are an abomination but here is our creed. The word creed comes from the Latin:

And last, the Credo contains what we believe, Credo, being Latin for “I Believe”…

And every article of faith started with “we believe.” Seems kinda like saying, “Automobiles are an abomination that is why I drive a car.” Nothing, but word play.

To show how the Mormon articles of faith is not a creed you lie about what is in our creed.

But consider that many of the creeds have statements about how if anyone says x, “let him be anathema.”

Then I noticed you lied again

They are very basic statements of fact, not rampant philosophical interpretation, like saying that Christ has “two natures and two wills.” When did God ever reveal explicitly that Jesus had “two wills,” for Pete’s sake? So what is that?

This is not contained in our Creed. It is contained in documents of the Third Council of Constantinople.

No points for being a liar. This leaves Joseph Smith still appearing to be a hypocrite.

 

[zerinus]

LOL. 3448 posts since Sep 06 = average 5 posts per day. At $1 per post that would buy you lunch every day at McDonalds (if you stuck to the dollar menu), with nothing left over for gasoline.

I am not greedy. I will accept whatever I can get!

zerinus

 

[why_me]

This thread seems to be moving now. I am bumping once more in hopes someone will comment on this false prophesy, or so it appears to be, before the subject gets buried again. If no one wants to comment, then it needs to be seen by anyone who has actually been considering what has been said here.

God Bless,
Prodigal Son1

A prophesy is a prophesy but it does not necessarily have to come to pass. To my understanding there are also prophesies in the old testament that never came to pass also. Much depends on the righeousness of the people and the evilness of the people. History, or should I say, the hardened hearts of the non-mormons stopped this prophecy from happening. Such is free will.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

A prophesy is a prophesy but it does not necessarily have to come to pass. To my understanding there are also prophesies in the old testament that never came to pass also. Much depends on the righeousness of the people and the evilness of the people. History, or should I say, the hardened hearts of the non-mormons stopped this prophecy from happening. Such is free will.

I posted an example of non-Christians, using free will, to stop or make false the prophesies of the Lord. It hasn’t happened.

You can say there are prophesies in the Old Testament that never came to pass. It’s another to post the specific prophesies so they might be explained.

Mormons have their own interpretations of, even their own, prophesies. Those interpretations seem to change according to the outcome. For example, Joseph Smith prophesied the US governement would be overthrown and wasted. When questioned about it, mormons say, “in a way”, it came to pass because of a particular presidential election didn’t go as one man planned. Seems, in my opinion, to be a far cry from a government being overthrown and wasted.

Those defenses change because, as even mormons realize, one failed prohesy has implications of a false prophet.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Auntie_M]

Here is the context in which that verse occurs:

scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2

You will see that it relates to polygamy.

zerinus

Dear, have YOU read this entire thing, (from the url mentioned above?)

It does relate to “many wives” but as an ABOMINATION. That you should have ONE wife and no concubines.

If I were you and trying to “Prove” LDS is true, I certainly would NOT refer anyone to these scriptures. It only Proves them to be untrue.

 

[Auntie_M]

There is alot that bothers me about the LDS. Jesus did warn us against false prophets. Some that would fool even the ELECT.

As I said in another post (way back). I did visit a mormon church for a while. It was explained about the “different levels” of heaven. (had never heard of that, but I listened). But when it came about that God had “many” wives and that we would be “Gods” and rule our own universe, that was a little much. Nor, was I ever shown WHERE this was in the Bible (or anywhere else, for that matter), to BACK up this belief.

Maybe someone here could explain how that belief came about and the scriptures in the Mormon book that relate to that.

It has always been MY impression that Jesus has HIS own church but the Devil has his also. It does seem that the Mormon church, with their beliefs about WHO Jesus is coincides with the New Testament when Satan was tempting Jesus, trying to prove He WASN"T who He said HE was.

I do think the people there, (at least the ones I have met personally), are very good people who are taking someone’s word for something instead of checking things out and praying for wisdom and discernment so are being led astray, as the blind leads the blind. The Mormons here have already stated that the "heads’ of the church are NOT required to be in seminary or have any kind of religious training. So WHERE does all the beliefs come from. (somebody’s opinion?)

I have to state my opinion, They are separate. (Even the protestants recognize the Trinity and accept alot the CC teachings. (Although some may not know that they do) So we have, in chronological order…
Jewish first
Catholic second
Protestant Churchs third
and Mormon fourth
and Christian Scientist fifth

It seems to me that the first two would know more about what Jesus/God taught as they LIVED during that time.

 

[Nan_S]

Hi Nan,

I interpret these passages to mean that:

1. David and Solomon went a little crazy with the polygamy, if you know what I mean. God was clearly ok with David being a polygamist, since God said He gave David Saul’s wives (see 2 Samuel 12:8), but then later David got so greedy that he had Uriah offed so he could cover up his adultery with Bathsheba. And the Bible says that Solomon started taking non-Israelite wives who persuaded him to worship false gods. This seems to me to be the message of Jacob 2. Jacob is saying that the Nephites who were polygamists shouldn’t justify themselves by David and Solomon’s behavior, because they so clearly went overboard.
2. I think the message of D&C 132 is that David and Solomon weren’t wrong to be polygamists. This is consistent with Jacob 2:30.

I really do have to leave off posting for a while, though. Contact me directly if you want to talk to me about anything.

Ahhh. The “real world” barges in. Have fun. See you when you get back.

For everyone else’s benefit:

It is the Bible that takes an apparently ambivalent approach to David’s polygamy. Mormon scriptures are anything but. I think your characterization of David as having gone “a little crazy” is an understatement, especially in the context of Mormon scriptures. The BoM uses the word “abomination” to characterize David’s polygamy, which is a pretty harsh contrast to the D&C’s subsequent statement that David’s polygamy was sinless.

It’s worth noting what you said about Solomon, that his first wife was an Egyptian non-believer, and his other wives were Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite. God commanded Solomon in 1 Kings 11:2, “You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods.”

Yet if Solomon had a believing wife, even ONE believing wife, the Bible makes absolutely no mention of that. So, when the D&C 132 says Solomon received many wives and concubines from God, and the Bible says these 700 wives and 300 concubines worshipped abominable foreign gods, I sense a major disconnect.

 

[RebeccaJ]

major disconnect.

The definition of Mormonsim.

 

[AlegreFe]

This always made me wonder if the Latter-Day Saints are Protestants. In my opinion they are not…

I have not read any of the other posts (sorry no time for that right now) but if you know what Protestant really means and how that “name” came about then you would know that anyone who is not Catholic and protests against the Catholic faith are indeed Protestants.

There are Protestant Christians and there are Protestants. I believe LDS are Protestants but not Christians. All the word means is one who protests against the Catholic faith. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they are Christian. JW protest against the Catholic faith. But all in all I would call LDS mormons. And I would call JW Jehovah Witnesses. I would call non-Cathoilc Christians, Protestants. But to me, they’re all “protestants” because they all protest against the Catholic faith.

 

[Auntie_M]

No that it is not my contention at all. Being a church apart is not the reason for the appeal of mormonism. What gives Mormonism its appeal is stories like this one in the recent July issue of the lds church magazine ‘Ensign’:

Did Jesus Really Visit the Americas?

By Carlos René Romero

Carlos René Romero, “Did Jesus Really Visit the Americas?,” Ensign, July 2008, 73

In 1960 I met a young man at a party who told me that Jesus Christ had visited the Americas after His Resurrection. I found the idea incredible and wanted to know more, so I began searching in libraries and inquiring of the various religious denominations in my hometown of San Miguel, El Salvador.

I searched for almost three years but found nothing. When I mentioned to various religious leaders that I had heard of Christ’s coming to the Americas, they told me I had been deceived. Because my search turned up no information, I eventually came to believe they were right.

One day two missionaries from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints came to my home and said they had an important message for my family. I immediately remembered my previous inquiries and asked them, “Do you know if Jesus Christ came to the Americas?”

One of the young men said, “We bear witness of that.”

At that moment I felt a great excitement in my mind and heart, and I asked, “How do you know that?”

He took a book out of his bag and said, “We know Christ came here because of this book, the Book of Mormon.”

What the missionaries taught me during that first discussion troubled me, and I doubted the account of the Prophet Joseph Smith’s vision of the Father and the Son. However, the Book of Mormon intrigued me, and the missionaries kept teaching me the lessons.

One afternoon, the elders asked me, “Have you prayed to find out if what we are teaching you is true?”

I told them I had done so but had not obtained an answer.

“You must pray with real intent,” they said.

I had been reading the Book of Mormon for several nights and had read about and believed in Jesus Christ’s appearance to the Nephites, but I still could not accept Joseph Smith’s vision. My internal struggle was terrible.

One night I knelt alone and opened my heart to God. I told Him that I needed to know if He had really manifested Himself to Joseph Smith. If He had, I promised Him I would be baptized into the Church and serve Him all my life.

When I arose early the next morning, the answer came to me through the Holy Ghost. My mind cleared, and my heart filled with peace. From that moment on, I have had no doubts whatsoever that Joseph Smith truly was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer.

I know that Christ came to the Americas after His Resurrection. My soul delights in this marvelous knowledge, taught to me with certainty by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The lds church would have fallen flat from the very beginning if not for such experiences with the holy ghost. And this is what makes the lds church a strong church with many committed members.

Because the contentiousness between mormonism and other christian faiths, the genius of JS is often overlooked. If he was not a prophet, he was certainly a religious genius who expanded christian doctrine, built temples and cities and founded a flourishing religious community. And he died young, much before his time.

Who is Carlos Rene Romero? There are alot of “stories” floating around, even in the “Watchtower”. But the MAIN thing one must be on the lookout for is “IS IT VERIFIABLE” .

Just like the “actors” who do commercials, they are paid to say these things, even when they don’t actually even USE the product they are talking about.

Just as in the JW’s Watchtower, there are “stories” upon stories but they NEVER give “who wrote these stories”. At least the Ensign did say by whom. But still how do you really know this man is truly real or someone’s imagination.

As a retired “salesperson”, I learned alot about “Second party stories” THEY SELL. People WANT to believe and when they hear a story of someone else “believing”, somehow it justifies them. It is and always has been a SALES TECHNIQUE.

As I have always heard, Preachers/pastors/etc HAVE to be VERY GOOD salespersons because they are selling the “invisible”.

Unless YOU know this Carlos personally, and have talked with HIM PERSONALLY about his experience, AND have SEEN God’s verification of him, don’t believe it. IF God did in fact speak to him, there would be some sort of “'verification” following that should be written about also.

 

[Auntie_M]

As I post anonymously, I tend to avoid discussing my personal circumstances on the Net. However, I will inform you that there is no such thing as being a “paid member” of the Church. We do not have a professional clergy. It is all done by voluntere work. Even the bishop does not get paid for what he does. He has his own job by which he earns his living. So no, I don’t get paid for posting messages here. I wish I did! Imagine how much money I could have made if I got a dollar for each post!

zerinus

If there is NO one being paid, Where does all the money go to?
I know you pay “tithes”. I may be confused on which sect does this, but in one religious sect, there is no one paying any taxes as all the money that is made goes to the church, and in turn the church gives the people the money they need to live on. So, their wages are seen as “non-profit” by tax standards cause it all goes to the church?