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1holycatholic
Guest
If this was your understanding of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit…
http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/Most-Holy-Trinity.jpg
… the chatter would drop even more.
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http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/Most-Holy-Trinity.jpg
… the chatter would drop even more.
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BDawg
Guest
I actually like that diagram, and I think it does describe our concept pretty well. The difference is that we don’t think “God” is necessarily a single “Being”, but it doesn’t say that on the diagram.If this was your understanding of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit…
http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/Most-Holy-Trinity.jpg
… the chatter would drop even more.
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AMDGtoo
Guest
I agree. And I think that the most important reason I personally object to Mormons calling themselves Christian (when all know that it isn’t so) is that by calling themselves “Christian”, poor innocent people are “taken in” and not made aware that they are about to hear some “hard sell” about “a testament of a different Jesus”. (Sorry BDawg, I really don’t want to offend you–you have been really very kind and open about answering–unlike some others–but both of us know it happens.) If those nice clean-cut and very polite boys came to the door admitting that their message is not a Christian message, but is a one from an organization that has beliefs that are quite contrary to it, the “investigators” would be put on guard and there would less likelihood of a Mormon baptism out of it all.mormonism is a “restorationist” church and thus should not (in my opinion) be classified as protestant, schismatic, or even apostate christianity. I do not consider it a christian religion either though. many new age sects and even Islam “recognize” jesus as being “important”. i see LDS as a heretical sect at best if one insists on categorizing a religion that does not worship or pray to jesus as “christian”. I think they are truly a new religion. they didn’t “transition” from another church (although a case could be made for sidney rigdon’s cambellite background). they started new with new concepts, doctrines and even scriptures. that they CLAIM a restoration of the original christian church is something the evidence appears to disprove. once again though there are other religions that recognize the bible as having some validity without being christian. so what are mormons? they are mormons. a unique religion just like their early leaders said they were. they have a lot of pentecostalish teachings as well some asiatic but wrapped up in a very nationalistic, “covenant race” type container in their early days and seem to have grown into a well marketed religious home based business type model like a spiritual amway. they teach the doctrines of men mingled scriptureand exercise hierarchical control over their members like JW’s. they have ongoing revelation with open canon but these days really downplay that so as not to appear all “branch davidian” (a good analogy to their JS days though). it’s kind of like a cheaper, easier scientology that appears sufficiently “christianish” to appeal to a larger demographic.
so to answer the OP… they are separate.
And of course without solid evidence of a total apostasy (loss of the priesthood) there is no need for a “restoration of Christianity” which the Mormon Church says that they are.
(About the Total Apostasy claim–A hint to our Mormon friends: reread the Church history from the beginning–from where Jesus gave His authority to Peter and follow it out from there (using Catholic/Christian definitions instead of using LDS ones) to see if there really is a break that may have resulted in a loss of the priesthood. With 2000 years of Church History, it’s easy to get sidetracked if a person tries to look for it from modern-day perspectives.)
As to whether Mormons are indeed Protestant, I think the question is answered when we consider the very word, protesting, and the date of the Protestant Reformation. Before that, there is one Church, no Mormons, and afterward there were again no Mormons. In fact Mormonism didn’t come into being until 1830–a long time from the foundation of Protestant denominations. What Protestant religion did the Mormons split from? What Protestant religion claims the split. None? Well there’s the answer. Mormons are their own peculiar selves, not Protestant.
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1holycatholic
Guest
That isn’t accurate. “Opposite” doesn’t apply. Apostasy is the renunciation/abandonment of a religion. Heresy is holding belief(s) contrary to a religion. Orthodoxy is conformity with the teaching of a religion.
Joseph Smith abandoned the heretical Christian faith (Seekers, Presbyterians) of his family in order to establish a non-Christian faith of his own making borrowing elements of other faiths and a hodgepodge of heresies. I don’t know if Joseph Smith received a valid Christian baptism. If he did he would be an apostate, if he didn’t he would be someone who created a mashup non-Christian religion.
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1holycatholic
Guest
I didn’t know that Mormonism was so Clintonesque that the definition of God would depend on what the meaning of “is” is.
uch:
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ibkc
Guest
The circle in the center which says “GOD”. Take a look at it.
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BDawg
Guest
Hi ibkc,
Sorry, I don’t understand your point. Are you saying Mormons shouldn’t like that diagram, because we don’t believe God is a circle?
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ibkc
Guest
No. Don’t be obtuse.Hi ibkc,
Sorry, I don’t understand your point. Are you saying Mormons shouldn’t like that diagram, because we don’t believe God is a circle?
You stated that the diagram does not state that God is a single being. It does. It does not illustrate the Mormon idea of three separate gods, united in purpose. The diagram illustrates the orthodox Christian Trinity. Only by ignoring the center can the diagram be forced to fit the Mormon concept of multiple gods.
I have to say I really don’t understand this sudden desperation on the part of Mormons to be accepted as something they are not. The Mormons I knew as a teenager had no desire to be accepted as “Christians.” They were very proud of who they were and what they believed.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Makes their deception more complete.
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BDawg
Guest
So, are you saying that I haven’t been clear about what Mormons believe about God in this forum? I thought I had been sufficiently clear about it that it would be obvious why the diagram would be fine for us. And I thought I had been sufficiently clear that it should have been obvious how the LDS would interpret such a diagram.
If you’re still confused, then go read the “Nature of God in Mormonism” thread. I don’t know what to say more than that.
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GemmaRose
Guest
I’ve been reading through the posts since page 16, checking references, etc. My brain is numb and my eyes are blurry, but I want to see if I’m caught up and understanding correctly.
*]**The Catholic Church. ** Jesus Christ, Lord God and Saviour, specifically stated that He was founding His Church upon the rock of Peter. As the Gospel message spread, certain communities may have misunderstood or listened to someone who was preaching incorrect doctrine. This would be quite understandable in a world without printing presses, radios, television and internet. To combat any heresies that arose, the early Church fathers wrote extensively about the one true faith. Also, during this early Church period, it was adjudged which of the many different writings were inspired Scripture and these were gathered together into what we now call the Bible.
There was only one true faith passed on through the one true Church for 1,000 years until the schism between East and West which was more political than doctrinal.
The one true faith continued for another 500 years until Martin Luther came along. Despite what his motives were (and I admit that at the time there were men in power in the Church who were sinning and causing scandal), he caused a rift where his followers, instead of trying to work on correcting abuses in the Church, chose to leave it. (In the 500 years since this rift, followers of the original break-away group have splintered into approximately 30,000 different groups.)
Throughout the ages, great minds have written in depth on the doctrines and dogmas of the one true Church, the meaning of its Sacred Scripture, and against heresies which arose from time to time.
However, the one true Church survived, corrected abuses, and continues on to this day, and is called Catholic.
*]**LDS. ** Three hundred years later (@1800), Joseph Smith comes along. Joseph Smith is referred to as a prophet by the LDS (which is anti-Biblical, as Jesus warned against false prophets who would come after Him). He finds gold plates which were inscribed with the supposed “fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ” (which, instead of being venerated by the one true Church for 1,800 years, had been buried near Manchester, NY), and which - if I am correct - conveniently and mysteriously disappeared. Smith supposedly received these plates from a being named Moron… oh, excuse me, Moroni. This being was supposedly once human but somehow changed natures completely and is now an angel. Smith proceeded to miraculously translate the plates by putting two stones in a hat and then putting his face into the hat.
What resulted was “The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ” which the LDS claim “is a collection of writings and teachings of the ancient prophets and followers of Jesus Christ who lived in the Americas from approximately 590 B.C. to 421 A.D.” (I find this tale particularly fascinating since these supposed “followers of Jesus” seemed to be following Him nearly 600 years before He was born on earth. Even though this apparently makes no sense whatsoever, it does lay the groundwork for the further claim that “[a] few hundred years before the birth of Jesus Christ, people had fallen into apostasy.” (However, I must admit, that I’m not sure which apostasy this one supposedly is.)
The LDS, despite presenting no proof whatsoever, claims that “**ecause the Church was no longer led by priesthood authority and revelation, error crept into Church teachings. Good people and much truth remained, but the gospel as established by Jesus Christ was lost, resulting in a period called the Great Apostasy.” There is no attempt to identify or explain what this supposed Great Apostasy consisted of, exactly who was involved, or exactly when. Neither does it attempt to give any credible explanation of how “the gospel as established by Jesus Christ was lost,” despite the one true Church having been its guardian for 2,000 years.
Immediately after the Introduction to the Book of Mormon is “The Testimony of Three Witnesses,” however there is no footnote or addendum noting that subsequently, on renouncing Mormonism these same three principal witnesses (Cowdery, Whitmer, and Harris) declared their testimony to be false.
The balance of the Book of Mormon appears to be a fanciful mixture of legitimate Sacred Scripture (as Christian so define it) and mythical people living in a mythical culture which seemed to exist only in the mind of Joseph Smith, as there are absolutely no archaeological or historical records of any kind of these supposed ancient American peoples.
This mélange is somehow believed by approximately 13 million people who since Joseph Smith’s time have broken into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Community of Christ (formerly known by the name “Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”), Church of Christ (Temple Lot), Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Church of Jesus Christ, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite).
Meanwhile, after 2,000 years, there is still only one true Church: the Catholic Church, built upon the rock of Peter as per the words of Jesus, holding firm and faithful to Scripture, Tradition, the teachings of the early Church fathers, and the Magisterium.
(I know which Church I want to belong to!
)
**
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BDawg
Guest
This is a very odd claim. Mormons have never wanted to be accepted as the same as other Christians, but we have ALWAYS claimed to be Christians. I just don’t understand where you get the idea that, at some point, we didn’t think of ourselves as Christians.
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BDawg
Guest
This is absolutely false. All three of them had personal problems with Smith, and ended up leaving the Church. Two came back later, after Smith was dead. NONE of them, however, denied their original testimonies. When they fell out with J. Smith, that would have been the perfect time to denounce his fraud, don’t you think? And yet, they didn’t.
In fact, an encyclopedia reported that David Whitmer had denied his testimony, and he wrote them to make them retract the statement.
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teancum79
Guest
You’ve misconstrued my use of the term “cult” The early Christians would have been seen as little else. Has anyone really bothered to recored what the Branch Dravidian’s (Wacco TX people) believed? that it was is of historical important whither a small religious group worships the moon or a pig few people know and fewer would really care. Minor changes would have gone unnoticed. As to doctrine changes there have been many and I mentioned them on a few occasions and many here have been all to happy to point out that the Bible never said anything that is in it and says all sorts of stuff that is not there. So I’ll spare others times being wasted trying to convince me that the sun does not shine.
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ibkc
Guest
I have been following that thread and have participated in it, as well. It is clear from that that Mormons reject the orthodox Trinity. The diagram represents the orthodox Trinity, so it cannot be reconciled with Mormon beliefs unless serious mental gymnastics are performed.
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teancum79
Guest
No I’m here to stop the spreading of lies and hate. An activity that meets with some opposition from the ignorant and the dishonest. I’ve not engaged in groundless attacks on the Catholic church or its leaders. I do not make a habit of turning a wide number of threads into attack the catholics threads. I do not present misleading half truths that slander the catholic church.
I have stated that I find its doctrines to differ from those found in the Bible. I have stated that I do not believe they have God’s authority. I would be interested in understanding how not being catholic equals spreading hate while so many here watch idly as their fellow catholics lie and slander others?
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zerinus
Guest
Well, I can’t say that had expected anything more from a representative of an Apostate institution.
zerinus
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Looks like this is proof of your coming here to attack the Catholic faith. Now do you understand why no one is buying what you’re selling here? Or do you really consider this part of your “legitimate” coversation?
I’d like to remind you that visitors are asked to be respectful of the Catholic faith.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
po18guy
Well-known member
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zerinus
Guest
Our belief in the Apostasy of the early Christian church is a fundamental principle of our religion. It is not something we can compromise on. It is not intended as disrespectful of any particular church. It is equally applicable to all churches, not just to Catholic.
zerinus
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