Are Lutherans next? Lutherans seek full communion with Catholic Church

[1holycatholic]

Somewhere in the midst of the official ALCC pages, or perhaps it was at the pages of one of the diocese or parishes, the actually refer back to the wikipedia article, so I would say it was pretty much spot on.

What I am curious about is whether or not it would be licit for a Catholic (Roman/ Byzantine) to attend their services and/ or to receive communion. My guess would be no, but its gotta be no by a very narrow gap!

God bless

Tony

They claim valid apostolic succession.

 

[curlycool89]

Oh come on. Wikipedia is by no means as bad as you paint it. There’s some great stuff there and usually it’s reliable. Come on…

There’s an easy way to tell with Wikipedia. The more popular or controversial (the latter usually leading to the former) the article, the more correct it will be. The ones you need to look out for are the less known articles because they’ve often been only written/checked by a niche group of editors.

 

[Dale_M]

There’s an easy way to tell with Wikipedia. The more popular or controversial (the latter usually leading to the former) the article, the more correct it will be. The ones you need to look out for are the less known articles because they’ve often been only written/checked by a niche group of editors.

Hmmm…I partly agree. For issues which are not hotly debated, yes, the more persons involved, the more likely the accuracy. However, the more controversial the topic, the more likely that a group of people will try to slant the article to favor their own viewpoint. Such topics are sometimes in a state of being edited and counter-edited, with wildly varying claims.

For me, the reliability of a Wikipedia article is in its citations. Having links to the source material for any claims which are made is invaluable to determining accuracy.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Wikipedia is always a starting point for me. I always cross check and look for greater depth elsewhere. I also like to follow the articles, links, and websites that Wikipedia uses for its information to double check. I like Wikipedia a lot though. Guilty!

There’s an easy way to tell with Wikipedia. The more popular or controversial (the latter usually leading to the former) the article, the more correct it will be. The ones you need to look out for are the less known articles because they’ve often been only written/checked by a niche group of editors.

 

[broadsword]

Well…it’s about Lutherans…but a different question…I taught at a Missouri Synodschool for 5 years …for 5 years…kept my head down as a Catholic… noticed during a chapel svc that thepastor not onlky blessed the congegation backwards…right shoulder to left…but he, himself personally blessed himself from right shoulder to left.

I ask him why he blessed himself like the Orthodox…he said he didn’t know why…had never really thought about it…:banghead:

 

[curlycool89]

Hmmm…I partly agree. For issues which are not hotly debated, yes, the more persons involved, the more likely the accuracy. However, the more controversial the topic, the more likely that a group of people will try to slant the article to favor their own viewpoint. Such topics are sometimes in a state of being edited and counter-edited, with wildly varying claims.

Articles like that tend to get locked though. There are several cases of people being banned from editing certain articles too (that’s not hard to look up, most things are public record).

The reason I included controversial is that it will usually attract more eyes watching to make sure that things don’t get stupid.

For me, the reliability of a Wikipedia article is in its citations. Having links to the source material for any claims which are made is invaluable to determining accuracy.

That is very true.

Wikipedia is always a starting point for me. I always cross check and look for greater depth elsewhere. I also like to follow the articles, links, and websites that Wikipedia uses for its information to double check. I like Wikipedia a lot though. Guilty!

But the real question is that after a couple hours of browsing Wikipedia, how far away from the original article are you?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well if he grows a long ZZ top style beard, wears a black crazy outfit, and starts busting out incense and icons, you know you’ve been infiltrated! Undercover Orthodox!

Well…it’s about Lutherans…but a different question…I taught at a Missouri Synodschool for 5 years …for 5 years…kept my head down as a Catholic… noticed during a chapel svc that thepastor not onlky blessed the congegation backwards…right shoulder to left…but he, himself personally blessed himself from right shoulder to left.

I ask him why he blessed himself like the Orthodox…he said he didn’t know why…had never really thought about it…:banghead:

 

[lutherlic]

Understandably because the ELCA allows women’s ordination, gay ordination, and is sympathetic to abortion, gay marriage, and all sorts of other idiocy. In the Catholic Church Catholics deny outsiders communion on the basis of the Eucharist being not only the body of Christ but a sign of unity of doctrine and theology. The same goes for the Lutherans. They feel as strongly on their end. Closed communion makes sense to them just as it does to Catholics.

Mostly right. LCMS has a “closed table” like we do, but the ELCA practices an “open table” where all baptized Christians are welcome to receive. LCMS is strongly opposed to all of this stuff. A few ELCA congregations have left or are considering it.

On the ELCA gay ordination thing, celibate gay ministers were previously acceptable. As of August 2009, open homosexual relationships are acceptable as long as they are in a “committed relationship”. Gay marriage was not explicitly, literally approved per se but they passed something vague enough to cover it.

In the Lutheran world, these decisions are made by “voting members” to annual conventions. From the ELCA website: “The rules governing the selection of voting members also direct that 60 percent of the voting members will be lay persons, half of whom are female and half of whom are male. At least 10 percent of the voting members are to be persons of color or whose primary language is other than English.”

That is the source of this lunacy. Voting on matters of faith as if the truth is revealed through a politically correct, democratic process. We are so fortunate to have the Magisterium to protect and teach the faith.

(I was a lifelong Lutheran. Three weeks after these latest heresies last August I was in RCIA. For me personally, the ELCA actions were a blessing in disguise.)

 

[Rascalking]

I have a best friend who is Lutheran-if he becomes one of us, he really has to stop telling Catholic jokes!

(He has some good ones! Not offensive, and funny…he’s an Italian, so I had to study up on my Italian jokes to be on his level)

 

[HauntedJame]

That is rather interesting, since Lutherans basically have such bare Churches in an objection to the “overflow of gaudiness and wealth” that the Catholic Church has…

Not my words! My Dad’s.

 

[Missycat]

I grew up Lutheran Church Missouri Synold. I attended Lutheran School (Trinity). My mother was sent to a Lutheran Academy St Johns in Winfield, KS w/ her 5 brothers, 3 of whom became Lutheran ministers. I became Catholic when I was 23 (36 yrs ago). The Lutheran Church is now nothing like what I grew up in, however the Catholic Church is very similar to my childhood church. Any baptisted person, LCMS or not can recieve communion now. Communion was resticted to members only. If you were visiting from out of town you had to speak w/ the Pastor 1st to verify you were LCMS or would be denied communion. Now any one can go. My mother still attends the Lutheran Church & is shocked by this. In the more liberal branches, they have women pastors, gay pastors & I’m not sure if they believe it is the body & blood of Christ as the LCMS does. Many LCMS have left the church because the believe it has become too liberal. Some I know became Orthodox. My mother is 81 & states she is very unhappy w/ the changes but believes she is too old to change. Please pray for her.

 

[lutherlic]

I grew up Lutheran Church Missouri Synold. I attended Lutheran School (Trinity). My mother was sent to a Lutheran Academy St Johns in Winfield, KS w/ her 5 brothers, 3 of whom became Lutheran ministers. I became Catholic when I was 23 (36 yrs ago). The Lutheran Church is now nothing like what I grew up in, however the Catholic Church is very similar to my childhood church. Any baptisted person, LCMS or not can recieve communion now. Communion was resticted to members only. If you were visiting from out of town you had to speak w/ the Pastor 1st to verify you were LCMS or would be denied communion. Now any one can go. My mother still attends the Lutheran Church & is shocked by this. In the more liberal branches, they have women pastors, gay pastors & I’m not sure if they believe it is the body & blood of Christ as the LCMS does. Many LCMS have left the church because the believe it has become too liberal. Some I know became Orthodox. My mother is 81 & states she is very unhappy w/ the changes but believes she is too old to change. Please pray for her.

Much the same for me too. I grew up in the LCA which later was merged into the ELCA. The LCA I knew was nothing like the ELCA of today. I sometimes wonder what Luther would think of today’s Lutheran churches. If only he had a vision of the modern Lutheran church 500 years ago, he may have made some very different choices.

 

[IAGladfelter]

I don’t understand how they could gain full communion with the Catholic Church. Don’t they teach the false doctrine of consubstantiation?

The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church (ALCC) officially teaches Transubstantiation only. It unconditionally rejects all Protestant eucharistic theologies. There is absolutely no difference between the eucharist doctrine of the ALCC and that of the Roman Catholic Church.

As an aside, simply “for what it is worth,” classical Lutheran Churches do not teach consubstantiation, per se. (That is a common misconception. They teach “sacramental union.” The Eastern Orthodox Churches teach consubstantiation. There is a difference between the two. Both posit the Real Presence, but painting with a broad brush, the former is perhaps a bit closer to the Calvinist "spiritual presence, and the latter closer to transubstantiation - but is not founded on Aristotelian philosophical concepts.

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter, ALCC

 

[IAGladfelter]

The wikipedia page (never a reliable source of information) for the ALCC states that they formed in 1997 in a split from Missouri Synod Lutherans.

In this case, the Wikipedia article about the ALCC is accurate. I monitor it frequently and update it whenever necessary.

Other sources of information are the ALCC’s home page, anglolutherancatholic.org , and the following websites: orgsites.com/pa/rac , and stmichaelsalcc.org . This last website has, on the “News” page, a copy of the full text of its petition to enter the Catholic Church, and the enhanced version of the USCCB’s Mandatum which all ALCC bishops, priests, and deacons much sign and with which they must comply.

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter, ALCC

 

[IAGladfelter]

Somewhere in the midst of the official ALCC pages, or perhaps it was at the pages of one of the diocese or parishes, the actually refer back to the wikipedia article, so I would say it was pretty much spot on.

What I am curious about is whether or not it would be licit for a Catholic (Roman/ Byzantine) to attend their services and/ or to receive communion. My guess would be no, but its gotta be no by a very narrow gap!

God bless

Tony

The ALCC’s Holy Orders and Sacraments are described by Catholic authorities as “valid but irregular,” which puts it in the same category as, for instance, that of the Polish National Catholic Church. A Catholic (Roman/ Byzantine) may attend an ALCC Mass, as far as that goes, but may not licitly receive the Holy Eucharist there except when it is legitimately impossible for them to get to a Catholic Mass, which is hardly ever the case. There are a few (very few) other closely related exceptions.

Blessings,
+Irl Gladfelter, ALCC

 

[IAGladfelter]

I agree that the Missouri Synod probably would not be included. From those that I’ve known, they don’t even let other Lutherans partake of Communion in their Missouri Synod churches.

The ALCC is indeed an offshoot of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.

For what it is worth, there are “high church Lutherans” (the proper Lutheran term - we have our own vocabulary - is “Evangelical Catholics”) in the Missouri Synod. They are not common anywhere, but they are in there, and when you find one they are generally extremely “high church;” far more “Romanized” than “Evangelical Catholics” in the ELCA; and they are far more theologically conservative!

That said, “high church Lutherans” in the Missouri Synod generally keep a very low profile. Unlike in the ELCA, because of the LCMS’ “hard wired” institutional and theological anti-catholicism, which is stronger among the laity than among the clergy, for that matter, any LCMS pastor who allows himself to become known as an “Evangelical Catholic” (a “high church” type) has, shall we say, made a “career decision” with “very serious consequences.” Their present call (pastoral assignment) might well be the last one. . .

Incidentally, to set the record straight, an individual LCMS pastor actually has considerable “pastoral discretion” as to whether or not he will allow a Lutheran from another congregation or another branch of Lutheranism to receive communion. Some do, other do not. In general, pastors who are “conservatives” are more strict about that than pastors who are "moderates,"Close / Closed Communion is the standard, but there is no real uniformity as to how it exercised in practice.

The WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) does not let other Lutherans commune; nor does the WELS even allow its own members to communion anywhere except in their home parish because only their pastor knows whether or not an individual is a sinner who may not receive communion even in his or her own parish.

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter, ALCC

 

[IAGladfelter]

I would also characterize their view as consubstantiation but they usually don’t like the moniker themselves. I’ve been told many times that Lutherans don’t subscribe to that terminology. But I agree that their language that Christ exists “in and under” or “alongside” the elements of bread and wine is a euphamism for consubstantiation. I know that many Lutherans in here like JonNC are better suited to explain it and I know Jon has commented on occasion that he is perfectly open to Transubstantiation as a perfectly plausible mode of Eucharistic presence.

There is actually a difference between consubstantiation (a partial transubstantiation, rather than a complete one) and what Article VII of the Formula of Concord (bookofconcord.org/sd-supper.php) refers to as Sacramental Union. The main difference is that transubstantiation and consubstantiation are both based on concepts from aristotelian philosophy while sacramental union does not. (Luther hated Aristotle, calling him “a foolish old pagan.”

In Sacramental Union the body and blood were described by Martin Luther as being in the bread and wine " as heat is in iron when it is heated. (In the former the substance changes while the accidents do not, and in the latter, the substance and accidents are unchanged, but the Body and Blood of Christ are present in an indescribable way.

Sounds like a technical difference, but the difference is there. This is widely misunderstood. Incidentally, many Lutheran laymen do not understand the difference, either, and many pastors choose not to make an issue of the difference so as to not confuse them.

(Keep in mind that the ALCC rejects both consubstantiation and Sacramental union, teaching transubstantiation only as per the Catechism of the Catholic Church.)

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter, ALCC

 

[lutherlic]

I think the ALCC is an exciting development in Lutheranism, but it is important that we also keep its size in context.

In the US, the ELCA has 4.6 million members and the LCMS has 2.5 million. WELS is smaller still. Added together, these are probably only a tenth of the worldwide Lutheran total.

I could not find any numbers for ALCC, but I get the impression it is in the thousands. Irl, can you shed any light on this?

 

[IAGladfelter]

I think the ALCC is an exciting development in Lutheranism, but it is important that we also keep its size in context.

In the US, the ELCA has 4.6 million members and the LCMS has 2.5 million. WELS is smaller still. Added together, these are probably only a tenth of the worldwide Lutheran total.

I could not find any numbers for ALCC, but I get the impression it is in the thousands. Irl, can you shed any light on this?

I can. At the time the ALCC’s membership statistics were reported for inclusion in the statistics section of the 2010 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, its membership was approximately 3,000. That was before the ALCC Metropolitan pro tem for Africa returned from a lengthy visit to Sudan and adjacent parts of Uganda, during which he brought in approximately 6,500 people in Sudan South of Darfur in addition to a 400 member parish in Khartoum. The ALCC also has overseas membership in Uganda, Kenya, lowland Ethiopia, and Germany.

A number of ALCC parishes have been growing nicely, one ethnic sub-Saharan parish in the US is growing exponentially, and during the past year a number of new parishes have opened, and more are “in the pipeline.” In round numbers, the ALCC now has in the US and worldwide just over 11,000 members.

Numbers are nice, and in the US, we Americans look at numbers / size perhaps a bit differently than in some other parts of the world. It is that distinctively American “bigger is better syndrome.” While Rome does look at numbers, it is not nearly as important factor for Rome as it is for we Americans. A Church being “international” seems to be more important; and the ALCC is in the US, but also has a presence in Canada, Germany, a significant presence in Sudan South of Darfur, it is Uganda and lowland Ethiopia, has a nice mission in Kenya, and is in full communion with two like-minded Churches in the United Kingdom.

(To be continued in my following post.)

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter, ALCC

 

[IAGladfelter]

Continuing from my previous post: The smallest Church to be brought into the Roman Catholic Church in recent years, was a group in India which had only 300 people and 15 priests. The ALCC is much larger.

More than anything else, Rome is cautious about not bringing in any group which may be a “Trojan Horse” or contain people who are interested in “bringing the insights of the Reformation home” into the Catholic Church. That is a “no go!” (That has been a problem with some Anglicans, historically.)

The ALCC, on the other hand, if you read the text of its petition to Rome online at stmichaelsalcc.org/News.dsp , only wants to enter the Catholic Church as ordinary Catholics like everyone else. All it asks is to enter as a unified body. The form could not be less important, and we expect to be under the authority of local Catholic bishops as well as our own leadership within the society.

By requiring its clergy to sign and abide by an enhanced version of the Mandatum, and enforcing it (!) the ALCC and its clergy have aready recanted all of Lutheranism (as well as all of Protestantism.)

The ALCC is not, repeat not, asking for a Lutheran Ordinariate; nor it is asking to be recognized as a sui juris (Uniate) Lutheran Church to "preserve the Lutheran theological and liturgical “patrinomy” in full communion with the Church. IT only wants be be an ordinary Catholics, and along those lines it took the unprecedented (as I have been told by Catholic authorities) approach of becoming thorughly Roman Catholic in faith and order, polity, worship, and varieties of spirituality before petitioning to enter the Catholic Church, preserving only a few purely cosmetic cultural things (Bach’s music, Chorales, Germanic art, and decorative fonts on our documents, etc. recognizing its Germanic cultural heritage (only.)

Our bishops are prepared to surrender their miters and enter as simple priests. Our married clergy will be for us (as it is for the Anglicans) only a temporary expedient only for the first generation of clergy entering from Lutheranism, and those laymen from within the organization (once it is in the Catholic Church) who want to explore a possible vocation to the priesthood will be required to be celibate and go though the local diocese’s discernment process and attend its major seminary like everyone else.

What we want to do by entering as a unified body (a priestly society or a "secular society of consecrated life) would be the easiest to set up.) However, the ALCC will comply with whatever the Pope offers it.

The ALCC may be small, but keep in mind that very few clergy and people entered the Catholic Church in the UK along with John Henry Cardinal Newman; but they blazed a trail others followed. The Anglican Use Pastoral Provision brought in relatively few parishes and priests, and many of the latter were either under-employed or unemployed for various lengths of time, but they followed the trail Newman and his little band blazed, and they widened it; and their work and sacrifices have now led to the formation of the Anglican Ordinariates.

What the ALCC wants to do is to blaze a trail for Lutherans just as Newman and his very small group of followers blazed a trail for the Anglicans.

The bishops and people of the ALCC refuse to accept the idea that the divisions in the Church are God’s will. They are an aberation created by man’s will only. We in the ALCC refuse to believe that Christ’s prayer in Gethsemane that all His followers would be one as He and the Father are one was answered by God in the negative. Nor do we accept the so-called Protestant “branch theory” of the Church or the Protestant view that all the separate ecclesial communities are in some way "actually "united in the faith.

Back in the 1950’s and 1960’s a famous Asian politician used to give this advice: “Life creates problems. We must move forward and not be afraid to make mistakes. But don’t cover up the problems, and don’t let the mistakes go on for too long.” The Reformation was a horrible mistake of immense proportions which has gone on 500 years too long! It is time to “undo” the Reformation, heal those cruel, needless wounds inflicted on the Church in the 1500’s, so that one day, we will all be in one Church under one shepherd, Christ, led on earth by His Vicar, the Successor to St. Peter.

Please pray for the reunion of the Church. Deus le veult! Ut unum sint!