Are Lying and Deception Always Sinful?

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I have a friend who is Catholic, but she is the only Catholic in her family. She is persecuted by her family and others for her Catholicism, but she is very faithful and devout. She is also a Catholic musician and uses that as an evangelical tool, but her father has threatened to force her to stop or else he will revoke her college funding and force her to return to her home country, which is heavily anti-Catholic and dangerous. Would it be immoral for her to continue doing Catholic music but lie to her father about it?
 
The lady in question would be wise to seek out a job to support herself and not rely on her father for that support.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm#2482

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.
 
I think there are times when lying is a necessity. The German Holocaust for instance, lying about not knowing where someone was to save their life is a necessary thing. It’s still a lie. The situation makes it less culpable, even removing the sin nature of it.

Lying to our parents is not one of those times, especially for ‘money’. An education is important. Our relationship with God more so. Our parents more so. First off, lying about your love for God is in a sense being ashamed of your relationship with him. It can be forgiven, and it could even be venial, with extreme circumstances… but it’s still a bad thing.

Secondly lying to your parents doesn’t just break one commandment. It breaks two. You are not honoring your father and mother by lying to them in order to keep using them as a means to get money for something you want. So I would tell the truth. If they cut me off I’d find a way to pay for it myself. Get a job, get a student loan, get a work study, get more financial aid. But don’t lie about it.
 
bmullins said:
I think there are times when lying is a necessity. The German Holocaust for instance, lying about not knowing where someone was to save their life is a necessary thing. It’s still a lie. The situation makes it less culpable, even removing the sin nature of it.
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This is contrary to the teaching of the Church, see the Catechism reference posted above. A lie is always sinful, there may be a reduction in culpability, but, it is still always sin.
 
scameter18 said:
I have a friend who is Catholic, but she is the only Catholic in her family. She is persecuted by her family and others for her Catholicism, but she is very faithful and devout. She is also a Catholic musician and uses that as an evangelical tool, but her father has threatened to force her to stop or else he will revoke her college funding and force her to return to her home country, which is heavily anti-Catholic and dangerous. Would it be immoral for her to continue doing Catholic music but lie to her father about it?
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No. It is not sin.
“Which Truth” was her going to tell? What she is really doing to a tyrannic father? Does the Tyrannical Father has the right to know what she does on her conscience?
The father is the father of her body (even so, he only gave a spermatozoa) but he is not father of her conscience.
HE HAS NO RIGHT to her conscience. Her conscience IS NOT HIS.
So, if it not his, he has no right over it.
So, she has no duty to tell him.
It would be the same as if he would ask her what she does in private activities, for instance, in the toilet, bathroom, which underwear she dresses, what kind of thoughts she is having, which choices she makes about love, and so on.
He has no right. She has no duty.
To lie is to steal the truth to someone who is entitled to that truth. If that person is not entitled to that truth, he has no right to ask for it and the other person has no duty to tell the other person what he wants to hear.
If we interpret it literally, then it would be a sin not to say to Hitler where the Jews were, saying instead one “so-called” lie ! Such lie would be a virtue !!!
Let’s not take doctrine literally but “in spirit” like said Jesus who criticized those who interpret the Law literally…
 
There have been LOTS of threads about lying. But one of the best explanations I’ve seen about morality and lying was an article by Janet Smith in First Things:

firstthings.com/article/2011/05/fig-leaves-and-falsehoods

It’s interesting to follow the logic. Lying itself is wrong, but she posits that because of the fall of Adam, the “perfectness” of truth-telling is also modified. A good read!
 
bmullins said:
Have a read: Mental Reservation
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The Jesuits…
When police comes and asks me whether I saw the thief, I put the hand in the belt and I say: “Not through here…”
I intend to say through the belt and the police thinks it is through the street.

:D:confused:
The Jesuits became famous for that…not for good causes…
 
How about lying to someone who demands to know your personal business.Like asking are you a virgin? or how much money do you have in the bank?Or when did you last have sex with your spouse? There are people who do this and If its none of their busines to ask I don’t think its a lie to not tell them the truth…I also don’t think it’s a sin to tell them to buzz off.Also Many people would have died horrible deaths throughout history even Christians if some people didn’t cover for them by lying .You don’t have to tell the truth to EVERYONE who asks you a question, it depends on their reason for asking .If a thief beat up my wife and me and demanded to know where were my valuables were, am I supposed to tell them? I don’t think so that would be abetting a crime.Same as the Holocaust victims who refused to give up their neighbours. they would have committed a much worse sin helping the murderers complete their crimes.
 
surritter said:
There have been LOTS of threads about lying. But one of the best explanations I’ve seen about morality and lying was an article by Janet Smith in First Things:

firstthings.com/article/2011/05/fig-leaves-and-falsehoods

It’s interesting to follow the logic. Lying itself is wrong, but she posits that because of the fall of Adam, the “perfectness” of truth-telling is also modified. A good read!
Click to expand...
Definitely a good read. I think the link it makes to stealing is an apropos one. We know that stealing is a sin. It’s one of the commandments. Yet, when someone is hungry the common ownership of things comes into play. We say that it’s not a sin to steal if your starving. The same should apply to lying. It’s a sin. But there are circumstances where deception is necessary. I don’t think it should be a common practice. I do know that if a woman was hiding in my house from her deranged husband, who intended to kill her… I wouldn’t hesitate to deceive him as to her where-a-bouts.
 
scameter18 said:
I have a friend who is Catholic, but she is the only Catholic in her family. She is persecuted by her family and others for her Catholicism, but she is very faithful and devout. She is also a Catholic musician and uses that as an evangelical tool, but her father has threatened to force her to stop or else he will revoke her college funding and force her to return to her home country, which is heavily anti-Catholic and dangerous. Would it be immoral for her to continue doing Catholic music but lie to her father about it?
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Actually, I believe this has something to do with the persecution of Christians and why our parents and family members will/can, hate us?..There is a breaking away from those who do not approve or believe what we have chosen in this life of becoming a practicing Christian or Catholic…

You have 2 choices, either to deny your Godly faith and accept their persecution…or break away from them all, to be faithful to GOD…

In this case there appears to be no middle ground.
 
Bookcat said:
Lying is sinful.
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Yes, but isn’t the culpability lessened or mitigated because she is being persecuted and controlled. She is protecting herself from being returned to her anti-Catholic country if she continues her Catholic music.

What would be the “good” if she openly and honestly continues, only to forced to return to a country that is anti-Catholic and where her persecution would likely be even worse? Not only has he threatened to cut off her school funds, but then he’s also threatening to send her to another country? What’s the alternative if she does not lie? Then she also cannot practice her faith. What does God want – for her to give up her faith?

We must listen to our parents, but there does come a point where the conditions become unreasonable. I would say that not all lying is sinful, but I do not advise that she use this course in the future for different reasons. Her intention was good, but a bit misguided. My fear is that if she lies, her father inevitably will find out, and the consequences will be worse.

What I would suggest, is that she not take her father’s money from this day forward, even if she has to take one class at a time and pay for it herself, using her time to become self-supporting with some part-time or permanent job – while being openly Catholic. Her father is wrong, and I would take him up on his offer not to pay for my schooling. In fact, I would rather he not. A parent may put conditions such as a certain GPA upon his child, but this is simply taking parenting too far.

And there would be no way I would be getting on that plane, even if I had to seek sanctuary somewhere else. If she’s 18, he certainly does not have to pay for her schooling but he cannot send her off to another country against her will – cultural stuff or not. This is not the dark ages.
 
My aforementioned friend is a student in another country, but she is not a citizen. She is only allowed to stay there, and thus express her Catholicism freely, if she remains a student. Her father is already forcing her to not play music (or to play music secretly, as she has been doing), both because it is Catholic and because it is music which is considered a distraction, and he is forcing her to pursue law, which she hates. But if he knew about her music, he would most likely revoke her student funding, thus making her an illegal immigrant and forcing her to return home. Her family, particularly on her mother’s side, are also violent, to the point of being deadly, and her life could be threatened in her home country where they are, but she is currently unable to become a citizen of the country she is currently visiting as a citizen. Just for clarification.
 
Castello said:
This is contrary to the teaching of the Church, see the Catechism reference posted above. A lie is always sinful, there may be a reduction in culpability, but, it is still always sin.
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I disagree with that. The Holocast was evil and murdered millions of innocents. I don’t think the Catechism had the necessity of protecting innocents from murderous “devils” in mind. For example, how can lying to protect the life of another be " lead[ing] someone into error."? The SS were not led into error by the lie of denying the whereabouts of a Jew. Instead, Hitler misled the nation by his lies. Additionally how does the protective lie of saving a life become “injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.”?

Lastly, "The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray" … no one was led astray (from the Lord) by saving the life of another by not revealing the hiding place to the SS soldiers.

I believe the lying that sinful is the lie that brings harm to another, either emotionally, physically or spiritually, and that can lead one away from the truth of who God is and what God has and does for us.

This young lady in question could be sent to her parents’ homeland, where she could possibly face death because she is a Christian. If I recall the OP correctly, the parents do not want her practicing anything Christian - they do not want her involved in Christianity. The “money” issue is secondary – like parents threatening to disinherit their offspring if they don’t obey them. A control factor. This young lady could tell her parents that she doesn’t want their money, however, it is her Faith they do not agree with and have threatened to have her shipped out to this anti-Christian, persecutionary, country.

2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray
 
Here we go. Ladies and gentlemen, the infamous “Is lying always sinful” thread happens again.

I suggest we all get our artillery gear on.
 
Strictly speaking it is a sin to lie to protect the life of another but it is morally right; and in the SS example, courageous. Are there really people here that would knowingly send a person to a certain death by divulging their wherabouts if asked?

Dude
 
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