Are Lying and Deception Always Sinful?

[AndyCothran]

I think that calling a lie a mistake is just a rationalization. It remains a lie. Everything stated here on this thread are not the truth and thus there are some lies being told.

Daniel49

right no lie is a mistake it is intentional but sometimes it has to be done ,

 

[AndyCothran]

These threads always got to the absurd.

We do not have any Nazis at the door.

We do not have a 1940’s cartoon child stealing a slice of cake from the rectory.

We do have a society that thinks murder, smoking and capitalism are the only mortal sins.

In real life, we likely tell 10 lies each day and think nothing of it.

…Sometimes we must use examples that have actually occiured ,there is nothing absurd about that ,

 

[Daniel49]

Actually yes.

While you may not have told a lie with your honest answer, I can tell you that you will end up un-married! So,choose your poison.

Daniel49

 

[rhiannonh]

Please read my posts above.

:yeah_me:

thank you

 

[Castello]

While you may not have told a lie with your honest answer, I can tell you that you will end up un-married! So,choose your poison.

Daniel49

My husband and I have been honest with each other for over 2 decades. Good marriages are honest marriages.

 

[surritter]

Right Castello. And if a wife asks about a certain hair-do, etc., then the poor sap can still avoid a lie by saying “Well…” with a playful smirk. She’d get the idea, he wouldn’t be lying, and there is still peace and honesty within the marriage.

 

[Frankk]

One must “always distinguish”.

Murder is intrinsically disordered.

Killing is not intrinsically disordered.

Killing in self defense can be justified it is not murder.

Capital punishment can be justified it is not murder.

Lying too is intrinsically disordered it can not be justified.

A legit mental reservation or discreet speech is not lying - it can be justified.
]

But this does not explain why killing in self defense is not intrinsically disordered but condemning someone to death is, by an action which is, in effect, aimed at saving one’s own soul. This seems a selfish act.

The section you quote doesn’t help much, barring condemning an innocent to save a nation, then saying almsgiving can be bad where the intention is vainglory. Or perhaps it does speak exactly to the situation.

In the example, an innocent is condemned to death, not to save a nation but to save an individual’s soul!

 

[Daniel49]

My husband and I have been honest with each other for over 2 decades. Good marriages are honest marriages.

My wife and I have been married over 40 years now. We know how to use discretion with our comments to one another. That means that sometimes, we do not tell the truth, especially in cases like I gave as an example.

Daniel49

 

[Bookcat]

While you may not have told a lie with your honest answer, I can tell you that you will end up un-married! So,choose your poison.

Daniel49

Huh?

I told my wife what you said…she said she wants truth.

 

[Daniel49]

Huh?

I told my wife what you said…she said she wants truth.

If you tell me that you have never told your wife a non-truth, then you are either not married or you are lying.

Daniel49

 

[Bookcat]

If you tell me that you have never told your wife a non-truth, then you are either not married or you are lying.

Daniel49

Have I lied at some point in my marriage and life?

Yes.

Was it a sin?

Yes.

Have I eaten too much?

Yes.

Was it a sin?

Yes.

Should I lie to my wife or eat too much?

No.

 

[Daniel49]

Have I lied at some point in my marriage and life?

Yes.

Was it a sin?

Yes.

Have I eaten too much?

Yes.

Was it a sin?

Yes.

Should I lie to my wife or eat too much?

No.

But, of course, if you had Jews in your attic, you would tell the authorities the truth if asked.

?

Daniel49

 

[Bookcat]

But this does not explain why killing in self defense is not intrinsically disordered but condemning someone to death is, by an action which is, in effect, aimed at saving one’s own soul. This seems a selfish act.

The section you quote doesn’t help much, barring condemning an innocent to save a nation, then saying almsgiving can be bad where the intention is vainglory. Or perhaps it does speak exactly to the situation.

In the example, an innocent is condemned to death, not to save a nation but to save an individual’s soul!

I think you need to go read more of my posts.

Also note the section notes directly that lying is intrinsically disordered and no good intention such as to help another can make it good. Such is more prior to the example you mention. Such does not mean that one is to tell them where they are…

As to:

But this does not explain why killing in self defense is not intrinsically disordered but condemning someone to death is, by an action which is, in effect, aimed at saving one’s own soul. This seems a selfish act.

Condemning (and innocent) someone to death is a gravely wrong act. No where do I say we ought to tell the Nazi the truth --“Oh yes they are in the basement”. Such I would say would be gravely wrong…

(oh and to not lie would not be to save ones own soul…we are not talking about that at all…just the nature of the lie as being a lie (see other post)…saving ones soul does not enter in here…)

 

[Bookcat]

But, of course, if you had Jews in your attic, you would tell the authorities the truth if asked.

?

Daniel49

Absolutely not.

 

[NSFrame]

I find some of these responses completely absurd. I cannot believe how legalistic some of the arguments are. Many cannot see the forest for the trees.

It is not sinful to conceal the truth if doing so will directly prevent a much greater sin, such as a home invasion or other military action on innocent people.

Killing a Nazi who has entered your home, even in self-defense, is a tragedy - saying you wouldn’t lie to a soldier but then you would kill the guy(??!) makes no moral sense. Basically what is being said there is that it’s OK to kill in self-defense but not to lie in self-defense.

Also, whether you lie by saying “yes” when the answer is “no” or whether you say something intentionally deceitful yet technically true is exactly the same thing in the eyes of God.

 

[Bookcat]

Killing a Nazi who has entered your home, even in self-defense, is a tragedy - saying you wouldn’t lie to a soldier but then you would kill the guy(??!) makes no moral sense. Basically what is being said there is that it’s OK to kill in self-defense but not to lie in self-defense.

.

One must “always distinguish”.

Murder is intrinsically disordered.

Killing is not intrinsically disordered.

Killing in self defense can be justified it is not murder.

Capital punishment can be justified it is not murder.

Lying too is intrinsically disordered it can not be justified.

A legit mental reservation or discreet speech is not lying - it can be justified.

We are discussing the “nature of a lie” here.

Faced with a Nazi at the door…

One can make use of say a mental reservation such as the kind used when someone calls and asks if so and so is home and one says no (with the understandable meaning of “he is not home for you to talk with”. Or other similar thing.

But most of us would likely not even be able to do such…and might fall into a little lie.

---

Lying to a Nazi at the door – is for the person either:

1. A slight venial sin (due to it being a lie) mitigated by the fear etc into a very slight venial sin quickly forgiven. (God knows our weakness…and he sees all the aspects involved here)
2. Objectively a slight venial sin (due to it being a lie) but subjectively due to an error in not recognizing it as a lie but seeing it as good not subjectively a sin even in the least.
3. Objectively a slight venial sin but subjectively not an actual sin due to various reasons.

But it is important to note that objectively it would still be a lie.

---

Or it may not be a lie.

1. Objectively not a sin at all due to it being a “different moral object” than lying. Such I leave to the professional moral theologians and of course to the Magisterium of the Church to determine.

It is important to note that if such could be argued…it would not be the intention or circumstance that “justifies” a lie (such can not happen) but rather such and such was not a lie (the moral object is different). Just like the taking of food in extreme circumstances can be “simply not theft”. It is not that the theft is ok due due to the circumstances…but rather it is “simply not theft” due to the universal destination of goods etc (see CCC).

 

[Speedypizza]

thats easy because the priest cannot say what another has said in confession and every Catholic knows that so he be quite at liberty to simply say he not allowed to say because it a confession. That isn’t lie-ing. that is telling the truth about confession and every Catholic would therefore need to go to confession themselves the next minute if they are judging Lena to be the thief!! Especially as Lena has just been forgiven.

That is incorrect, the priest CANNOT even indirectly point the finger at Lena. He can in no way even admit that Lena came to him for confession, much less what she confessed! Cannon Law states “Let the priest absolutely beware that he does not by word or sign or by any manner whatever in any way betray the sinner.” In saying that he cannot say because of the seal, he is giving a sign as to who stole the cake. Feel free to ask your priest about it if you think I am wrong.

 

[Daniel49]

Most of Catholic Cannon law comes directly from Jewish Talmudic law. And, in Talmudic law, the preservation of life comes before all else.

Here is an example. A pious Jew observes the Sabbath. Assume he or she is an MD. The person sees another person in distress (hit by a car or something like that). The pious Jew is required to drop adherance to Sabath law to give aid to the person in distress. Preservation of life is tantamount.

Daniel49

While I am expert in neither, I have been schooled in both Jewish and Catholic law

 

[Daniel49]

As an aside, I note that there are discussions about “Killing” and “Murder”. The commandment is not “Though shalt not Kill” - - - it is “Though Shalt not commit Murder”.

There are times when it is actually required that you must kill (to protect your family or homeland in the event of ultimate peril). This too comes directly from Jewish Talmudic law.

Daniel49

 

[Castello]

But, of course, if you had Jews in your attic, you would tell the authorities the truth if asked.

?

Daniel49

I pray that I would have the courage to accept death before I would put someone in danger.