Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

[Calvin_95]

The Lord did not do such a thing. You are reading your beliefs into the Bible.

I do believe what the Lord said, but do not atribute to the Lord that what He never said.

Let us see if what you present is really “definitive evidence”.

But nowhere does the text you presented as “definitive evidence” say Jesus’ brothers are Mary’s children. It seems you are reading your beliefs into the text.

No, the fact that Jesus gave His mother to John proves Mary did not have other children.

Yes, and the Jewish culture would not allow John to care for Mary who has own grown up biological children.

And Ieeing Scripture as a whole (like you suggested) you would easily see that those named as Jesus’ brothers have a different mother – Mary the wife of Clopas. Do you think that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was the wife of Clopas?

What I accept is this: the Bible does nowhere say Mary had other children. You wanted it to say so, but it doesn’t.

placido

You can fool yourself into using the weak argument that “where does it say Jesus brothers are Mary’s children”. You own words speak for themselves as to the sadness of your argument; perhaps if you read the context of Matthew, Mark and Luke on how Jesus defined who were His mother, brothers and sisters, then you might figure out that everyone there knew. Like I said, this thread would not exist if the plain words of Scripture were not usurped by the precepts of men in my opinion. I’m now asking myself why I got into this thread only to point out the obvious. I do admire the loyalty; even though I wholeheartedly disagree with it.

 

[Calvin_95]

Nice try but Jesus had no biological brothers. That is why even your “definitive evidence” failed to prove what you allege.

placido

The Apostles James, who wrote the Epistle of James is one of them. You will need to study the Scripture to see it and it does require actual studying of the Scripture. Jesus had a conversation with his brothers as I posted earlier, but you chose to deny the words of Jesus Himself. What else can one say to such a person? Nothing.

if you want to believe Mary was assumed, was a perpetual virgin et al and worship her as co-mediatrix, then have at it-I do not recognize this Mary.

 

[Calvin_95]

i do have to admit my friend that i am not a scholar. i have a high school education. (barley ) but no. i do not pick and choose. i am a convert from protestantism. baptist as a matter of fact. and i believe everything the Catholic Church teaches. Peace

Is that suppose to be some type of credential? I use to be a Catholic and now I have a relation with the God who created everything. Does this have any credibility with any man here?

 

[Calvin_95]

be that as it may. if in fact they were his biological brothers, they would have been angered by the arrangment Jesus made. it is evident that they were observant Jews, and if they were his biological brothers, they would not have stood idley by without some sort of protest. there is none recorded. why? because there was no conflict of interest. these were close relatives. Jesus had the right to choose whoever he pleased to care for his Mother. Peace

When was Jesus ever concerned about angering a man?

 

[Calvin_95]

so…using the same passage, Mary is not Jesus Mother, correct? she was right with them outside the door…i could be misunderstanding you. Peace

Was Mary a BELIEVER? How did Jesus define who His true mother, brothers and sisters were? BELIEVERS.

 

[Calvin_95]

Calvin,

And we also must recall that the Word of God is that, His presence is in His Word. We should not use the Sacred Scripture in a manner that it is more a weapon or something we manipulate for our own righteousness.

So quit doing it then.

 

[Calvin_95]

Not if you believe what Jesus said; this is not obscure, but very plain, but it rubs against the precepts of men. Taking Matthew 16:19 and jumping to apostolic succession; that is a leap of faith. This topic is plain and straight foreward in Scripture.

 

[Calvin_95]

Incorrect.

Scripture contradicts YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Biblical record.

You are forced to make a choice.

“Be ye not wise in your own eyes. Fear the Lord.” Proverbs 3:7

Tradition is older than the NT. You received your NT from Tradition. You believe in Tradition when you CHOOSE to. If you believe Tradition in the big things (the canon of the NT), why not in the teeny tiny things, like the meaning of the word “cousin.”

Go read John 1:1, then come back with this nonsense. You all are just arguing with the Word of God and believe you are arguing with me. Didn’t Jesus say it would be that way?

 

[Calvin_95]

History and the study of languages and literature does in fact reveal the opposite.
Your understanding is incorrect, and you don’t have to be a Catholic to recognize that.

Yeah that’s right; keep believing that…Lord, Lord

 

[Calvin_95]

Well, John Calvin certainly believed not only in the Virgin Birth, but also that the Mother of Christ our God was a virgin throughout her life. He also called her “Mother of God” which is not in Scripture.

Do these also contradict Scripture? Not at all - simply because they are not directly mentioned in Scripture does not mean they contradict the Bible. They do, however, go beyond it.

Martin Luther also believed that Mary was sanctified by the Holy Spirit from her Conception and was taken up bodily to Heaven. (Yes, when it comes to this, I’m a Lutheran! ).

John de Satge is an Evangelical Anglican theologian who has written extensively on the Marian doctrines and their relation to the Scriptures. I would recommend him as he explicates the entire subject much more lucidly and within the Evangelical Christian framework than I ever could. For example, there are issues for Evangelicals that just don’t come up for me as an Eastern Catholic. John de Satge affirms that the Immaculate Conception et al. goes beyond Scripture, but serves to underscore the “Evangelical pulse” issues.

Alex

While he was Catholic and you actually interviewed him or saw in in a vision? Does He now have some weight with Catholic precepts? Was John Calvin infallible; after all he was a mere man. No man is infallible unless another man declares him to be with one exception, the God-man jesus Christ was truly infallible.

 

[Calvin_95]

That word is used in other contexts as well, for close relatives, or even friends.

For example, St. Paul used it in his letter to the Galacians.

Gal 1:18-19

There were only two Apostles named ‘James’; one was the son of Alphaeus, the other was the son of Zebedee.

So was St. Paul mistaken when he called James a “Brother of the Lord”?

Yep; keep going and you will get to the third James, the brother of Jesus who was a bishop in Jerusalem and wrote the epistle of James. Keep studying and you will get there; you are 2/3 of the way there…don’t stop now.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Yep; keep going and you will get to the third James, the brother of Jesus who was a bishop in Jerusalem and wrote the epistle of James. Keep studying and you will get there; you are 2/3 of the way there…don’t stop now.

Oh Calvin,
You have yet to even say anything relevant about Mary as the Mother of God, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, Queen of Heaven, etc… As it is though, I am glad to see you here again. Maybe this time you can be reasonable in arguing against the Church and I too will think before I speak.

Anyway, where does it say that James was Jesus brother? Consider also that Scriptures say that one James was the son of Zebedee in one place and another James is the son of Alphaeus and Thaddeus

I accept the Word of God over the precepts of men. If you can show how your Mary dogmas and bull coincide with Scripture, then you have something to debate. Scripture leaves no room for debate; that is how clear it is. The only reason this thread exists is do to the precpts of men over the authority and plain word of God in my opinion.

We too accept the Word of God over the precepts of men. That is the whole point of Christianity. I think you can agree with that. I also agree that Scriptures leave no room for debate. You rightly stated your last sentence is your opinion. Obviously, I cannot change that even if it is untrue. But there is a fine line between telling somebody but they are doing and giving an opinion. The OP was opened for a healthy debate on Scriptures. Go read it. You now have the task to show us how these are precepts of man. You have to show HOW it contradicts Scriptures! That will be very hard for you though. It is even hard for your scholars. You also rightly stated that John Calvin is a mere man and not infallible. Very convenient to use that statement when he contradicts what you say.

 

[KathleenGee]

Calvin,

Take a time out and look back at your posts and check your attitude…

 

[Marie5890]

Only those who real focus is on Our Lord will understand His love for His mother…

The rest will be blinded in their need to be “right” their need to be “competitive” their need to "prove"something

Yeshua loved His mother. How could He not. Our loving her too does not diminish Him. It just validates what He already feels.

Our Lady is hardly “unbiblical”.

His love for her unbiblical? Riiiiight…Suuuuuure…Everything flows from His love for her…It doesn’t take a scientist to figure out the depths of His love…

NO DUHHHH people…catch a major clue…

 

[Marie5890]

Calvin,

Take a time out and look back at your posts and check your attitude…

LOVE you Kathleen!!

Sometimes people are less interest in their attitudes then they are interested in winning some points, winning some game.

We live in a society that is ALL about WINNING…all about COMPETITION…

It’s really not about truth…

Calvin maybe legitmately be more interesting in “winning” some debate/some competition than actually discussing truth…

And he may not even get the difference between the two…

 

[graceandglory]

Yeah that’s right; keep believing that…Lord, Lord

Is your degree in history or linguistics?
Mine’s in both.

It doesn’t take faith or believing to research something out and find it to be true.
Learn some history.

 

[graceandglory]

How can it when it contradicts what God has said; is your authority greater than He?

I accept the Word of God over the precepts of men…

Hey, bud, that’s a nice thought, but you accept the whole new testament. According to you, that would be the precepts of man, since it was Catholic men who were guided by the Holy Spirit to select the canon of the New Testament.

You accept the Scriptures that the Catholic Church added to the Jewish canon, but you don’t accept the teaching of the Church that gave you the scriptures.

Sounds like pick and choose to me.

I challenge you to prove otherwise.

 

[KathleenGee]

Here it is…

Attitude by Charles Swindoll

"The Longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than success, than what other people think or say or do.

It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company…a church…a home.

The remarkable thing is we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day.

We cannot change our past…(or the Catholic Church, mine)…We cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude…I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you…"

 

[placido]

If God were born in the sense that you use it, then He is not eternal.

Which sense do I “use it”? Is Mary really the mother of Jesus or is the Bible lying? If she is, is Jesus God?

Since God is eternal, always existed, then how can He be born?

“For a child is born to us, a son is given us; upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:5).
You ask that strange question simply because you confuse being born with being created. When we say Mary is Mother of God you wrongly think we mean Mary is creator of God.

God came into the world in human flesh through the birth canal of a woman identified in Scripture as Mary.

First, Mary is a mother (like the Bible say) not just a canal. Women are not just canals, they are mothers.
Secondly, you admit God being born (through a birth canal) while at the same time saying He was not born … and can not even see you are contradicting yourself.

Think about this; was God everywhere when God-man, Jesus, was in the womb? Is God omnipresent or not?

That is like asking: “was God everywhere when God-man, Jesus, was before Pilate?”
Or, do you God-Man in the womb is less God than God-man walking around in Nazareth?

Placido

 

[placido]

The Apostles James, who wrote the Epistle of James is one of them. You will need to study the Scripture to see it and it does require actual studying of the Scripture.

There were only two apostles named James: one is the son of Alpheus and the other the son of Zebedee. Was Mary the mother of Jesus married to one of those or did she commit adultery? Soon or later you will have to give up your erroneous understand of Scriptures brother.

if you want to believe Mary was assumed, was a perpetual virgin et al and worship her as co-mediatrix, then have at it-I do not recognize this Mary.

I would also not recognize this Mary who is worshiped. That shows your miserable understanding of Catholicism.
Why don’t take at least an hour or two learn instead of trying to teach that what you don’t understand?

placido