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KathleenGee
Guest
It is very sad…Ed West…that is a good link. My daughter’s mother-in-law is Four Square Gospel…we hit it off right away, a true friend. She admitted the issue regarding history. We just live on common ground and pray together.
B
Barbkw
Guest
St. Apphonsus must be meeting new found fame in some protestant denominations.
However a Catholic debates the accusations against Apphonsus on a website at:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/does-st-alphonsus-de-liguori-in-glories.html
"St. Alphonsus goes on to make his presuppositions crystal clear in the next section, “To the Reader” (initially citing another writer, in agreement):
“And now, to say all in a few words: God, to glorify the Mother of the Redeemer, has so determined and disposed that of her great charity she should intercede on behalf of all those for whom his divine Son paid and offered the superabundant price of his precious blood in which alone is our salvation, life, and resurrection.”
On this doctrine, and on all that is in accordance with it, I ground my propositions . . . the plenitude of all grace which is in Christ as the Head, from which it flows, as from its source; and in Mary, as in the neck through which it flows. (p. 26)
The very analogies and language make it impossible for Mary to be “above God.”
God “determined” that she would intercede for those “blood-bought” by Jesus’ death on the cross, in Whose precious blood “alone is our salvation.”
The grace flows from the “Head,” Jesus, through the neck, Mary. A neck is not a head. The Body of Christ has one divine Head, Jesus. A neck is under a head, and it isn’t the control center, so to speak. Etc., etc. It is clearer than the sun at high noon on a clear day that Mary cannot be equal to God at all in this scenario.
She is merely a creature and a vessel, albeit highly exalted and venerated and honored.
Every prophet served the same function to a lesser degree.
St. Paul played a profound role in salvation and Church history. That doesn’t make him God. Nor is Mary God.
Catholics know this, but our critics oftentimes don’t “get” it.
Of course she is fundamentally and qualitatively lesser than God, being a creature.
A stream can’t rise above its source; likewise, a creature can never rise above its Creator.
That was Satan’s fatal mistake in judgment and “metaphysical, or ontological category.” Informed, orthodox Catholics never make this grave mistake concerning the Blessed Virgin.
But Protestants so often mistakenly think this is official Catholic teaching, and their criticisms are often steeped in a profound ignorance of Catholic Mariology and the rationales which lie behind it.
St. Alphonsus makes the Catholic theological position vis-vis Mary abundantly clear in many explicit statements in his book:
. . . it is one thing to say that God cannot, and another that he will not, grant graces without the intercession of Mary. We willingly admit that God is the source of every good, and the absolute master of all graces; and that Mary is only a pure creature, who receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God . . . We most readily admit that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice . . . and that by his merits he obtains us all graces and salvation; but we say that Mary is the mediatress of grace; and that receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, and because she prays and asks for it in the name of Jesus Christ . . . (pp. 156-157) "
. . . Jesus now in heaven sits at the right hand of the Father . . . He has supreme dominion over all, and also over Mary . . . (p. 179)
“Be comforted, O unfortunate soul, who hast lost thy God,” says St. Bernard; “thy Lord himself has provided thee with a mediator, and this is his Son Jesus, who can obtain for thee all that thou desirest. He has given thee Jesus for a mediator; and what is there that such a son cannot obtain from the Father?”
. . . If your fear arises from having offended God, know that Jesus has fastened all your sins on the cross with his own lacerated hands, and having satisfied divine justice for them by his death, he has already effaced them from your souls . . . " . . . What do you fear, O ye of little faith? . . . But if by chance," adds the saint, “thou fearest to have recourse to Jesus Christ because the majesty of God in him overawes thee – for though he became man, he did not cease to be God – and thou desirest another advocate with this divine mediator, go to Mary, for she will intercede for thee with the Son, who will most certainly hear her; and then he will intercede with the Father, who can deny nothing to such a son.” (pp. 200-201)
Let’s summarize, then, the explicit statements thus far by St. Alphonsus, teaching that God, not Mary, is the source of all salvation and grace, and that Mary is by no means, in no way, shape, or form, divine, but a mere creature, whom God uses in an extraordinary fashion:
However a Catholic debates the accusations against Apphonsus on a website at:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/does-st-alphonsus-de-liguori-in-glories.html
"St. Alphonsus goes on to make his presuppositions crystal clear in the next section, “To the Reader” (initially citing another writer, in agreement):
“And now, to say all in a few words: God, to glorify the Mother of the Redeemer, has so determined and disposed that of her great charity she should intercede on behalf of all those for whom his divine Son paid and offered the superabundant price of his precious blood in which alone is our salvation, life, and resurrection.”
On this doctrine, and on all that is in accordance with it, I ground my propositions . . . the plenitude of all grace which is in Christ as the Head, from which it flows, as from its source; and in Mary, as in the neck through which it flows. (p. 26)
The very analogies and language make it impossible for Mary to be “above God.”
God “determined” that she would intercede for those “blood-bought” by Jesus’ death on the cross, in Whose precious blood “alone is our salvation.”
The grace flows from the “Head,” Jesus, through the neck, Mary. A neck is not a head. The Body of Christ has one divine Head, Jesus. A neck is under a head, and it isn’t the control center, so to speak. Etc., etc. It is clearer than the sun at high noon on a clear day that Mary cannot be equal to God at all in this scenario.
She is merely a creature and a vessel, albeit highly exalted and venerated and honored.
Every prophet served the same function to a lesser degree.
St. Paul played a profound role in salvation and Church history. That doesn’t make him God. Nor is Mary God.
Catholics know this, but our critics oftentimes don’t “get” it.
Of course she is fundamentally and qualitatively lesser than God, being a creature.
A stream can’t rise above its source; likewise, a creature can never rise above its Creator.
That was Satan’s fatal mistake in judgment and “metaphysical, or ontological category.” Informed, orthodox Catholics never make this grave mistake concerning the Blessed Virgin.
But Protestants so often mistakenly think this is official Catholic teaching, and their criticisms are often steeped in a profound ignorance of Catholic Mariology and the rationales which lie behind it.
St. Alphonsus makes the Catholic theological position vis-vis Mary abundantly clear in many explicit statements in his book:
. . . it is one thing to say that God cannot, and another that he will not, grant graces without the intercession of Mary. We willingly admit that God is the source of every good, and the absolute master of all graces; and that Mary is only a pure creature, who receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God . . . We most readily admit that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice . . . and that by his merits he obtains us all graces and salvation; but we say that Mary is the mediatress of grace; and that receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, and because she prays and asks for it in the name of Jesus Christ . . . (pp. 156-157) "
. . . Jesus now in heaven sits at the right hand of the Father . . . He has supreme dominion over all, and also over Mary . . . (p. 179)
“Be comforted, O unfortunate soul, who hast lost thy God,” says St. Bernard; “thy Lord himself has provided thee with a mediator, and this is his Son Jesus, who can obtain for thee all that thou desirest. He has given thee Jesus for a mediator; and what is there that such a son cannot obtain from the Father?”
. . . If your fear arises from having offended God, know that Jesus has fastened all your sins on the cross with his own lacerated hands, and having satisfied divine justice for them by his death, he has already effaced them from your souls . . . " . . . What do you fear, O ye of little faith? . . . But if by chance," adds the saint, “thou fearest to have recourse to Jesus Christ because the majesty of God in him overawes thee – for though he became man, he did not cease to be God – and thou desirest another advocate with this divine mediator, go to Mary, for she will intercede for thee with the Son, who will most certainly hear her; and then he will intercede with the Father, who can deny nothing to such a son.” (pp. 200-201)
Let’s summarize, then, the explicit statements thus far by St. Alphonsus, teaching that God, not Mary, is the source of all salvation and grace, and that Mary is by no means, in no way, shape, or form, divine, but a mere creature, whom God uses in an extraordinary fashion:
- “My most loving Redeemer and Lord Jesus Christ”
- “graces that I have received from God”
- “his precious blood in which alone is our salvation, life, and resurrection.”
- “the plenitude of all grace which is in Christ as the Head, from which it flows, as from its source”
- “God is the source of every good, and the absolute master of all graces”
- “Mary is only a pure creature”
- “Mary . . . receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God”
- “Jesus Christ is the only Mediator of justice”
- “by his merits he obtains us all graces and salvation”
- " receiving all she obtains through Jesus Christ, . . . in the name of Jesus Christ"
- “. . . all graces that have been, that are, and will be dispensed to men . . . through the merits of Christ”
- " the mediation of Christ alone is absolutely necessary"
- “Jesus . . . has supreme dominion over all, and also over Mary”
- “a mediator, . . . his Son Jesus, who can obtain for thee all that thou desirest.”
- “He has given thee Jesus for a mediator; and what is there that such a son cannot obtain from the Father?”
- “Jesus . . . having satisfied divine justice for them [our sins] by his death, he has already effaced them from your souls”
C
Calvin_95
Guest
“My God and my SAVIOR” - believe the Scriptre is God breathed? Then believe the very words of Mary and the rest of Scripture and don’t add precepts of men into the same league as the word of God. Once you do that and you will not, then the Mary of Scripture comes to life on the pages of God’s holy and undefiled word.helloon another thread, a poster, stated that the dogmas relating to our Blessed Mother were “wildly un biblical.” to go into this would have derailed that particular thread, and out of respect to the posters wishes not to pursue this debate, i have decided it would be interesting to hear from anybody at all, Catholic or protestant who believe that the Marian dogmas are un biblical. i myself, do not see them as such. when a side by side comparison is made between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant. there is a very strong parallel. when we read o.t. accounts, about solomon for example, and bathsheba( the queen mother, who had her sons ear) there seems to be a deeper meaning pointing to another Mother and Her Son, and how She would intercede to Him on our behalf. just a few examples. feel free to come up with your own. its wide open. the immaculate conception, the virgin birth, the assumption into heaven. all of it. peace to all of us, and may this be a friendly discussion.
Live long enough and this Mary will have the “official” prominence that many in Catholic circles already give unofficially, which wil be an equality with Jesus, but before that can happen there must be 10000 words written as to why that is okay, biblical and/or not bilical. If you go to NewAdvent and type in “worship” and find “Christian Worshiop”; then you will see exactly what I am speaking of. Veneration is worship, but it isn’t worship although it is worship, but don’t think it is idolatry before God because it really isn’t and here is why? 5000 words later; see what I mean.
If more time were spent discerning the triths wriiten in Scripture as opposed to defending that which is not as though it were; then ???.
Post #52 is a perfect example; she is deity, but she is not. The Bible has a phrase and a warning for this type of activity, but no sense in expounding because it will be neglected and therefore it will be rejected, but each will give an account for getting the truth or not getting the truth.
B
Barbkw
Guest
Post # 52?
Your glasses must be fogged up.
Mary, like Adam and Eve, was created without original sin. She still had free will and could have given God the heave hoe.
Your glasses must be fogged up.
Mary, like Adam and Eve, was created without original sin. She still had free will and could have given God the heave hoe.
N
Nicea325
Guest
Do you have ancient historical sources backing up your position?
T
traillius
Guest
Well you have no evidence, but aisde from that, seems you don’t think the triune God was enough for the ancient romans. Curious statement. Since God represents the fullness of eternity, why would there need to be something to fill the gap. And speaking as a catholic, the church back then, the Catholic Church, didn’t need to accomodate. It still doesn’t. The fullness of Truth is strong enough on its own merits to convince, without a gap measure to draw the converts across. Ancient pagans converting to christianity ( catholicism) abandoned their gods and goddesses, or else they were considered heretics.
E
Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Let’s keep the discussion respectful and charitable.
Those coming from other forums on CAF need to be aware these rules here are strictly enforced.
Thank you.
Those coming from other forums on CAF need to be aware these rules here are strictly enforced.
Thank you.
T
traillius
Guest
I hope that previous post wasn’t directed partially at me.
If so, I am not sure how, but I am sorry if I did something wrong.
If so, I am not sure how, but I am sorry if I did something wrong.
D
Dpoc41
Guest
yeah i know exactly the type of “Catholic” you mean. I recently had a go at a journalist on twitter who was protesting The Popes uk visit, i then got a message from a woman who said she was Catholic, and called me deplorable. I checked out her profile and it said catholic and sex-fiend. I wonder how thats working out for her?
B
Barbkw
Guest
Jharek,
To explain about:
"Post # 52?
Your glasses must be fogged up.
Mary, like Adam and Eve, was created without original sin. She still had free will and could have given God the heave hoe. "
My post was to connect up with another poster (I think that post was deleted). It went on and on about Catholics eventually placing more divinity on Mary than on Jesus.
The poster was making reference to something which you wrote in #52.
To explain about:
"Post # 52?
Your glasses must be fogged up.
Mary, like Adam and Eve, was created without original sin. She still had free will and could have given God the heave hoe. "
My post was to connect up with another poster (I think that post was deleted). It went on and on about Catholics eventually placing more divinity on Mary than on Jesus.
The poster was making reference to something which you wrote in #52.
B
Barbkw
Guest
Something much worse actually. I grew up in the late 60-80s. Devotion to Mary was for “old ladies”.
It’s taken me 30 years to develop a closeness. How sad is that?
It’s taken me 30 years to develop a closeness. How sad is that?
P
Publisher
Guest
Thank you friend. There is much truth to what you say…seeing the “similarities” in various faith traditions, indicated to me there is some “Archtypal” figure in one way or another…the Light Within teaches all me and we as collective humanity have certian “universal myths” each culture and religious persuasion embraced…that devotion to Mary gained popularity among the “lower and middle class” Roman citizen because Isis and Diana worship was so prevelant.
I do not equate devotion to Mary as “pagan worship”…but her acceptance as “theotokos” by the common people certainly offered a devotion which they longed for…a “Mother” to call upon…so they now had Mary isntead of Isis or Diana.
I do not equate devotion to Mary as “pagan worship”…but her acceptance as “theotokos” by the common people certainly offered a devotion which they longed for…a “Mother” to call upon…so they now had Mary isntead of Isis or Diana.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Publisher,
Our practices regarding on the Blessed Mother were not turning tables on goddesses, but rather that she was and is regarded as the Mother of Christ and He came to lay down His life for us and to bring us into eternal life. That is most sufficient.
Our practices regarding on the Blessed Mother were not turning tables on goddesses, but rather that she was and is regarded as the Mother of Christ and He came to lay down His life for us and to bring us into eternal life. That is most sufficient.
M
MagsM
Guest
How does the Catholic church arrive at the conclusion that Mary was conceived without sin?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Through the spiritual insights of saints in the Church that evolved over time. Do you know the background that led up to the dogma that Mary was conceived without sin? Theologians were well debating this condition well into the 1800’s. Then Mary appeared to Bernadette. She asked the lady’s name. And Mary answered, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”
Mary’s faithwalk followed Christ’s in that she did not sin, had perfect faith, and did not suffer the wages of sin, thus also bringing out the dogma of the Assumption of Mary into heaven.
It is debatable between Latin and Orthodox whether she died or not.
Mary’s faithwalk followed Christ’s in that she did not sin, had perfect faith, and did not suffer the wages of sin, thus also bringing out the dogma of the Assumption of Mary into heaven.
It is debatable between Latin and Orthodox whether she died or not.
T
tester
Guest
1)then by your description: that would be an unbiblical account.
2)In the context of all of humankind; the Bible actually says ALL have sinned.
- not in the Bible
- contradict a plain passage in the Bible
N
Nicea325
Guest
The Bible says ALL have sinned-correct. So I guess Jesus sinned due to the fact of His 100% humanity. Hhmmm? Contradictions in the Bible?
P
PJM
Guest
***Quite the opposite:=benidict;7255122]hello
Marian Dogma’s, rooted in truth or either implicitlu or explicityly biblically based.***
K
KathleenGee
Guest
As you know, PJM, problem is in trying to guide others in seeing Scripture beyond literal/fundamentalist perspective…a different mind set and different way of relating to the Word of God.
I go only so far with sharing differences…but we had some great threads this past August on Mary’s perpetual virginity and her assumption into heaven.
I go only so far with sharing differences…but we had some great threads this past August on Mary’s perpetual virginity and her assumption into heaven.
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