Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

[mortonsam]

And Paul’s letter to the Romans is silent on the Trinity, the 2 natures of Jesus–divine and human, that God created the heavens and the earth, the virgin birth, the Resurrection .

You know exactly what I am saying here. I am certainly not the first person to say this, not by a long shot.

And your argument is worn out and weak. The Bible may never use the term Trinity, but it also does not use the term Pope or Roman Catholic either, especially not when speaking of the Church founded upon Christ.

 

[mortonsam]

Catholics do not really place much focus upon Mary, at least not as much as as the Fundamentalists allege. I can prove what I say, but you have no prove of what you allege.

No?? Having liturgies that proclaim things about Mary that are absent from Scripture and otherwise Christiasn theology as whole isn’t putting focus upon Mary?

Someone had to come up with this strange criteria as Plan B. Was revelation written before or after the Acts? Try to answer that question; it will help you discover how miserable your arguments really are.

This is just simply igoring the elephant in the room which is what happens most all the time in situations like this. I expect it.

 

[GaryTaylor]

My friend should you find and take the time to read on the topic of church seperation Orthodox/Catholic, I believe you’ll find yourself in a different frame of mind. I assure you I have. Its arrogant and wrong to assume we as followers, follow those who never made a mistake as humans. Matter of fact its 100% incorrect. All one has to do is study the history of each and every Pope, which is written in hundreds of different books, Fr. Malichi Martins for example will give you and excellent outside view of inside the Catholic Church/Popes. Not an inside view of inside the church. Simply put…we are not without fault here. Though we must be carefull to not read far into what is said by someone outside the church with an agenda also. Yet the truth could start to be found.

Anyway the topic of the Blessed Mother isn’t as simple a Bible/Scripture. Not even the study of Jesus Christ can be reduced to a topic at CAF through Scripture. And there is certainly more than enough written on Christ. Yet even at this point today the question arrise’s, who was Christ? How, and why does he continue to be so significant today? GOD/Christ himself in denied constantly today, is it any wonder Mary can’t be found?

Regardless of how many time’s [which means absolutely nothing] the Blessed Mother appears in Scripture, we can only begin to comprehend, thus fully understand the state of mind and the heart felt compassion for Mary from God.

Mary is an individual, a human being, who was not only “chosen above all” by God and given a rare and unique responsibility, but also a individual who took that responsibility to another level of meaning. Not only did she complete the responsibility of bearing God, Mary is Christs first Disciple, the one who followed him through his entire life to the point of being left at the Cross holding his body. Never and no-where in scripture or in anyones words does Mary ever fail God. It doesn’t happen, ever. No-one in history aside from God knew Christ better than Mary/Joseph. Christ/God as human without the two individuals of Mary and Joseph could not have completed his Goal. Its not rational to even think on these lines. Their significance is so understated and underestimated that we can only begin to realize the true meaning of the Holy Family, by viewing our own live and relationships with Grandparents, Mother, Father, Sister, Brother, Daughter, Son, and Grandchildren…then we must critically view our own life and ask ourself, “who am I to question God, how do I relate to God, how significant am I to God?”. We can only scratch the surface and begin to feel what God must have felt and thought, never mind what He thinks.

The history in study of the Blessed Mother is so extensive that we could start quoting Saints, Disciples, Apostles and Theology scholars today, and not finish till next year. And I’ve done this and I’m here to tell you, a year later I only scratched the surface of Mary. And the Daily Quotes from a year could be read on Twitter, today. These Souls I am referring to are the very Souls who dwelled on the same questions as us. At some point all of them refrained from Sin, attoned for there error and sought to comprehend as we do. Most, after years of consecration to God, only then felt worthy to leave their words and thoughts, which also must be regarded in this matter. The same questions have been asked, from decade to decade, from century to century. Right from Luke who sat with Mary and John. Luke gives us a rare window to view and understand Mary. He immediately speaks of Mary in Gospel. He has an opportunity to take a rare artifact made of Jesus Christs own hands, and what does he do with it? He paints the Black Madonna. In that painting, what does Christ do? He points to his maternal Mother. The New Ark? Without a doubt its an undisputed Theory which a good arguement against hasn’t arrived yet.

In essense what we are dealing with in everyone of these threads on Mary is the vast question as to how we can or cannot know God thus Mary.

The arrogance that would make God an object and impose “our” conditions upon him is incapable of finding him. Thus we already begin to imply that we deny God as God by placing ourselves above Him, by discarding the entire dimension of Love, and interior “listening”; by no longer acknowledging anything as real but what we as human’s can “grasp”. In the “interior listening” to God, is where the Blessed Mother is truly found. Any other means can only point to the direction. Any other course is a risk to miss Mary. Its already been told, not all receive Mary, she is a Blessing from God. One that can only lead to God, and with such amazing accuracy and swiftness. Yet again this can only be understood by “Interior Listening”. And by listening to those who did listen.

To think and speak in another aspect is to make ourself God. And to do that is to abase God, the Word and Oneself. We cannot simply read scripture and conclude to know God.

The question is “what is the dispute about” when discussing this remarkable woman of Mary the Blessed Mother?

The dispute about interpretation of Scripture is ultimately a dispute about who God is? And the path “you” chose to find God through Free-Will. The Blessed Mother must also be found through the same free-will.

Missing one of Gods prophets I can assure you is not uncommon. They missed Christ/God who stood in front of them. They chose Jesus Barabbas a political revolutionary leader to live over the human God. Same choice’s we make today and everyday. Nothing changes but the name’s, all the evils are the same just with new disquise’s.

My Prayers are with you, May you always walk in Gods light.

God Bless, GT

 

[PRmerger]

The Bible may never use the term Trinity, but it also does not use the term Pope or Roman Catholic either, especially not when speaking of the Church founded upon Christ.

Exactly. So if you believe in the Trinity, then there’s no reason to object to the concepts of Pope and Roman Catholic. If you reject the latter “because it’s not in the Bible”, then you ought to object to the Trinity.

Curious how logical it is, eh?

 

[PRmerger]

LOL! And without an official interpreter of this Goldilocks folk tale, folks are left to decide for themselves what is “just right”.

 

[KathleenGee]

Here on track…

In response to Mary not being mentioned…there is an innuendo in the letter of St. John towards ‘the lady’…and he was the one chosen by Christ to care for her…the most faithful of all apostles.

The Acts and letters and revelation all focus on the foundation of the Church and ends with the last book as a source to exhort us to persevere.

Where you find what happens after the foundation is in the life of the Church and all its documents accessible to anyone.

In context to the remark to Christ in an ending gospel that there would never be enough books written about Him, we then simply turn to all the materials, witness, testimonies, books available at the Vatican, the greatest library in the world…the continuation of the New Testament. Here you will find the devotion to Mary existing since beginnings of Christianity…I mean, look at the attention Rose Kennedy got for being the mother of John Kennedy…and not only will you see devotion of Mary but the history of her presence at work in helping the Church come to Christ.

 

[mortonsam]

Exactly. So if you believe in the Trinity, then there’s no reason to object to the concepts of Pope and Roman Catholic. If you reject the latter “because it’s not in the Bible”, then you ought to object to the Trinity.

Curious how logical it is, eh?

Yeah, nice try. As you are well aware, the Trinity can be deducted from several verses of Scripture as can Christ’s divinty and humanity. It however does not operate as such for things such as Peter being the first Catholic pope and the Roman Catholic church being the one true Church and it is for obvious reasons. You are a smart person, don’t try to pass yourself off as otherwise.

 

[mortonsam]

And I view your response as something less than cordial which would get the vast majority of Protestants kicked out of here. For some unknown reason, it doesn’t apply otherwise.

 

[PRmerger]

Yeah, nice try. As you are well aware, the Trinity can be deducted from several verses of Scripture as can Christ’s divinty and humanity. It however does not operate as such for things such as Peter being the first Catholic pope and the Roman Catholic church being the one true Church and it is for obvious reasons.

Oh, absolutely the papacy can be “deducted from several verses of Scripture.” As well as the CC being the One True Church.

You are a smart person, don’t try to pass yourself off as otherwise.

This is reportable. Be careful.

 

[PRmerger]

And I view your response as something less than cordial which would get the vast majority of Protestants kicked out of here. For some unknown reason, it doesn’t apply otherwise.

Oh, there are a lot of Catholics who have gotten banned or suspended from the CAFs.

 

[benidict]

If followers of Christ were to practice such veneration to Mary, it seems to me that the New Testament letters would be saturated with directives indicating such. Especially convincing is the fact that Paul’s letter to the church at Rome makes no mention of her at all. Don’t get me wrong, Mary was a very special and remakable woman, chosen by God to bear his son. But men have elevated her to a position where she virtually has god-like attributes, this comes strictly from Roman Catholic tradition, not the bible.

as has been pointed out to you already, the new testament does have references to all generations calling her blessed, and the angel himself, said " hail Mary full of grace" etc. also the vision John had of her in revelation, equating her with the ark of the covenant. but lets say that nothing was written at all in the bible about Mary. we have the Church fathers, some of whom were the apostles desciples as well, giving her the same status the Church does today. read some of their writings. also Martin Luther, and John Calvin, never gave up the Marian doctrines they had been taught by Rome when they broke off. why not? it is a relatively new phenomenon for protestants to attack the beliefs about the Blessed Mother, which have been around since his conception. we can even go back to the o.t. if you would like, and see how she is typified there. bear with me please, im in a combat zone, and i dont always get the chance to answer right away. Peace

 

[Good_Fella]

** It always has interested me (and caused me to wonder a bit) why both genealogies of Jesus - In Matthew and in Luke - trace Jesus through Joseph and not Mary.**

Joseph was of the Davidic stock that carried the promise of the Messiah, and it was the legal father who determined which lineage the child belonged to according to Jewish custom. Mary was also of the house of David and was espoused to the man of the same royal family, but she was a woman.

The Lord has sworn in truth to David;
He will not turn from it;
"I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body."
Psalm 132, 11 [New KJV]

And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb."
Luke 1, 41-42 [NAB]

"I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed."
Genesis 3, 15 [DRB]

Mary had to belong to the royal house of David in order for the prophecies to be fulfilled. In fact, the Judeo-Christians acknowledged the Mother of Jesus as being the Queen Mother (Gebirah) of our Lord and King, who was given the throne of David his father to reign forever (cf. Lk 1:32). Luke bears testimony to this tradition that had existed among the Jewish Christians and gives voice to it in the words of the archangel Gabriel.

And coming to her he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
*Luke 1, 28 [NAB] *

In the Greek, “Hail, favored one” reads “Chaire kecharitomene.” In ancient time this salutation (chaire) was reserved for members of a royal household. Mary was both of the house of David and mother of the king’s offspring. The Hebrew word* Gebirah* (Queen Mother) is distinguished from the word *meleketh * which the prophet Jeremiah uses for the Queen of Heaven in pagan mythology. The Mother of our Lord was not confused with Isis, for instance, by the Judeo-Christians of the first century. It is safe to assume that the first Christians in Palestine believed that Mary was in heaven reigning as queen next to her royal Son after she passed from this world.

Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right.
1 Kings 2, 19 [NAB] (cf. Mt 2:10-11)

Our Lord’s throne is in Heaven.

Thus saith the Lord: Heaven is my throne, and the earth my footstool.
Isaiah 66, 1 [DRB]

2. The Protestant version of the Hebrew scriptures is identifical with the one you will find in your neighborhood synagogue.

The Jews rejected the Book of Judith, among others, but that was after they had rejected Christ. Protestants reject the same books, although the evangelist Luke refers to it with regard to Mary’s mediatory role in the economy of salvation. Observe the striking parallelism which clearly indicates how much the Jewish Christians of apostolic time perceived Mary as having a vital soteriological role to exercise and venerated her for her unwavering faith and moral courage in helping to bring about our salvation by the Divine initiative: the Jewish heroine par excellence!

*Then Uzziah said to her: "Blessed are you, daughter, by the most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the chief of our enemies. (cf. Gen 3:15)

{“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”}

"Your deed of hope will never be forgotten by those who tell of the might of God.

{“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”}

May God make this redound to your everlasting honor, rewarding you with blessings, because you risked your life when your people were being oppressed, and you averted our disaster, walking uprightly before our God." And all the people answered, “Amen!” “Amen!”*

{“Behold, from now on all ages will call me blessed.”}

Judith 13, 18-20 [NAB]

The authority to canonize the Scriptures rests with the Catholic Church (cf. Mk 12:9).

PAX :heaven:

 

[BryanM27]

Wow, I leave for two days and come back to find flying pink elephants and Goldilocks determining what is just right…lol

mortonsam, allow to repeat a previous argument of mine that no one has yet responded to:

Would you approach any King (or other head of state) on earth without first going to an intermediary of some sort? And would you not want that intermediary present with you when you did see the king so that he/she could support you in your petition?

So if you would not approach an earthly king without help, why do you think it wise to approach the King of Kings without an intermediary?

That is the role which Mary plays in salvation. Do we HAVE to go through her? No. However the Church is very clear that it is wise to do so. In going to Mary, rather than directly to Jesus Christ, we are saying to our Lord that we are not worthy of an audience with Him. We are demonstrating both respect for His mother and for the precious gift of grace, as well as our humility.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

The virgin birth is in Sacred Scripture and some protestant denominations have taken a vote in their congregations and decided to deny it.

Noncelibate same sex attraction is talked about as sinful in Sacred Scripture. Some denominations deny that as well, hiring homosexual partnered pastors.

Barbkw, I don’t know that any Protestant Christian denies the virgin birth. Although I’m certain many of them would take issue with the perpetual virginity of Mary.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=511412

I hope I can post a thread link as a reply. I found it to be more effective than cut and paste the actual posts.

This is a good start traillius but it does leave out the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Others denominations will bring the virgin birth up for a vote by the entire assembly. The last major Episcopal conclave, the virgin birth was asked to be brought up for a vote. The assembly refused to bring the matter to the table.

I was in Anaheim and I must have missed that.

dfms.org/documents/GC2009_SummaryofActions.pdf

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Sounds like a good starting point to me.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Martin Luther also believed that Mary was sanctified by the Holy Spirit from her Conception and was taken up bodily to Heaven. (Yes, when it comes to this, I’m a Lutheran! ).

Very true Alex, but JonNC can correct me if I am wrong. Luther even though a believer in these doctrines would not have elevated them to dogma as a requirement of belief on the faithful. The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption would be totally up to the individual believer to discern it’s importance in their life, but both of these would be left outside the realm as a necessary belief for salvation.

 

[PRmerger]

Very true Alex, but JonNC can correct me if I am wrong. Luther even though a believer in these doctrines would not have elevated them to dogma as a requirement of belief on the faithful.

How could a priest elevate anything to a dogma?

 

[Mikeoffaith]

JL: Yes I do believe, if Mary asks Jesus, it will be done, because Mary’s will and command is that God’s will be done, not her will, as do all the saints in heaven. I recognize Liguori’s remarks as HYPERBOLLY (exaggeration), to make a point. Do I, or Liguori believe that Mary is omnipotent and commands God in and of herself? No, only thur the GRACE of God, knowing his will, being perfectly united to God in love.

Hi JL-

Please don’t take this as just to be contrary. Not having been brought up in the whole Marian tradition, I’m not as well versed at what Roman Catholics believe or don’t.

So let me rephrase what I think I’m hearing you say, let me know if this is totally off track. OK so Mary’s will is that God’s will be done, and because she is so perfectly in tune with God and His will, that anything she asks will be done just by the shear fact that she is in this communion, so to speak, with His will.