Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical?

[moondweller]

JL: Scripture supports it and no David did n’t elevate his mother to a throne, but the son of David, Solomon did, whom will build a HOUSE FOR THE LORD (Temple). As God’s anointed king he had complete authority to institute any office he saw fit for the kingdom.

No, he had no such authority. He was given no Divine instruction to do so. God gave Israel a king as they requested (like the Gentile nations) but the king was to serve God and was under His authority. He was not a sovereign.

If Mary’s son is the Son of David and King in David’s line, then Mary is Gebirah=Queen Mother in the regenerated spiritual Kingdom of Israel in the line of king David=Kingdom of God. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase OF HIS GOVERNMENT and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END, UPON THE THRONE OF DAVID, and upon HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even FOR EVER. The zeal of THE LORD of hosts WILL PERFORM THIS.

Notice, no “queen mother.” Sorry, my friend, but there is no mention of a “Gebirah” in ANY of the prophecies regarding the Messianic, Davidic Kingdom (which is yet to come). Not even Gabriel said anything to Mary at the Annunciation regarding such a position. That would have been the time to say something about it - but, alas, more silence.

Sorry, my friend, but that position just doesn’t exist - now or in the Messianic Kingdom yet to come. As told to Mary, the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father DAVID (not Solomon.) It’s the Davidic Kingdom, not the kingdom of Solomon. David didn’t elevate his mother. And as a side note, Mary’s line isn’t through Solomon but through Nathan (Lk. 3:31). Not that it would have mattered - there’s simply no such position prophesied or was announced by the angel to Mary.

And the fact is, not even Christ is reigning as King yet. Presently He shares His heavenly Father’s throne in heaven functioning there as the believer’s High Priest. However, He will rightfully ascend His father David’s throne in Jerusalem at His second Advent. Just as Mary was told. But Gabriel said nothing of a throne for Mary - nothing!

 

[PRmerger]

No, he had no such authority. He was given no Divine instruction to do so.

Moon, do you have any bible verses that cite that John the Baptist had authority to preach?

In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:

If not, then are you saying that what John the Baptist did was contrary to the Divine Will of God, as you are claiming with David?

 

[PRmerger]

No, he had no such authority. He was given no Divine instruction to do so.

Moon, do you have any bible verses that cite that the Magi had authority to leave their homes to see the newborn babe?

*After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” *

If not, then are you saying that what the Magi did was contrary to the Divine Will of God, as you are claiming with David?

 

[PRmerger]

No, he had no such authority. He was given no Divine instruction to do so.

Moon, do you have any bible verse that cite that the author of Hebrews (hitherto unknown, but only consider theopneustos because the Catholic Church discerned it to be), had any authority to write this:

*In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. *

If not, then are you saying that what the author of Hebrews did was contrary to the Divine Will of God, as you are claiming with David?

 

[moondweller]

Moon, do you have any bible verses that cite that John the Baptist had authority to preach?

Of course: Matt. 3:3.

 

[PRmerger]

Of course: Matt. 3:3.

Your pastor could claim the same thing. Would he have authority to do this?

 

[moondweller]

Your pastor could claim the same thing. Would he have authority to do this?

My pastor isn’t John the Baptist. PR, you have defense against what I wrote, do you?

 

[KathleenGee]

Moon…

You accuse heresy…when it is not heresy…it is regarding the active participation by the communion of saints with the church here on earth…

 

[placido]

I think it has not been condemned, but the local Bishop, up to now, has not given it his approval due to his doubts.

Wrong! The Bishop affirms his complete certainty that “Our Lady did not appear in Medjugorje”.

placido

 

[pablope]

Wrong! The Bishop affirms his complete certainty that “Our Lady did not appear in Medjugorje”.

placido

I am not up to date with the affirmation or lack of. Can you provide the latest statement from the local bishop?

 

[benidict]

Heresy! Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."Heresy!Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Heresy!1 John 2:2 "…and He Himself is the propitiation (complete satisfaction) for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world."Heresy!John 1:16-17 "For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."Mary is not directly connected to ANY of these Divine truths. Only Christ alone. IOW, she had nothing do with any of them - according to the Scriptures.

really? shes not? then how come she is prophecied all the way back in genesis? how come she is typified in the ark of the covenant? how come she is prophesied in isaiah? what would have happened if Mary had said “no” to the angel? was the prophecy of simeon false? when Jesus refered to her as “woman” was he downplaying her? or was he simply stating the fact that she was The Woman, who was prophecied. she had alot to do with the divine truths my friend. the Lord made it painfully clear, in the old testament what was to transpire. i can take any verse, and make it say whatever i want. for example. i could take the verse, “and judas went out and hung himself.” and combine it with…" go ye and do likewise." wow! i quoted truth directly from the bible! and i got a very warm fuzzy feeling after i did it! it must be Guidance from above…

 

[placido]

I am not up to date with the affirmation or lack of. Can you provide the latest statement from the local bishop?

I don’t think that is a question of being up to date because the local bishop, the Commission on Medjugorje as well as the Yugoslavian Bishops’ Conference declared that “Mary is not appearing at Medjogurje” as early as 1980s … but people simply ignore all this.

placido

 

[PRmerger]

My pastor isn’t John the Baptist. PR, you have defense against what I wrote, do you?

That, moon, is begging the question, isn’t it?

Circular.

Not to mention, if you use Matt 3:3 to support John’s authority, then we will use 1 Sam 16:13 to support David’s authority.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Sam 16:13[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[JustaServant]

**And the fact is, not even Christ is reigning as King yet. ** Presently He shares His heavenly Father’s throne in heaven functioning there as the believer’s High Priest. However, He will rightfully ascend His father David’s throne in Jerusalem at His second Advent. Just as Mary was told. But Gabriel said nothing of a throne for Mary - nothing!

Dispensationalist nonsense. Nowhere in Scripture nor in the early Church do we find such a concept. Prove Christ is not reigning now.

 

[JustaServant]

Tell ya what Esdra. The monkey is on your back to prove this.
So please provide the time. place, persons, including the clergy involved (because this needs to be reported to the Bishop).

chirp…chirp…chirp…chirp…

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by jlhargus JL: Scripture supports it and no David didn’t elevate his mother to a throne, but the son of David, Solomon did, whom will build a HOUSE FOR THE LORD (Temple). As God’s anointed king he had complete authority to institute any office he saw fit for the kingdom.

No, he had no such authority. He was given no Divine instruction to do so. God gave Israel a king as they requested (like the Gentile nations) but the king was to serve God and was under His authority. He was not a sovereign.Notice, no “queen mother.” Sorry, my friend, but there is no mention of a “Gebirah” in ANY of the prophecies regarding the Messianic, Davidic Kingdom (which is yet to come). Not even Gabriel said anything to Mary at the Annunciation regarding such a position. That would have been the time to say something about it - but, alas, more silence.

JL: Yes alas more total silence on the part of any OT prophet saying the kings in David’s line had no authority to establish a throne for the queen mother. That would have been the time to say something about it. Instead scripture confirms the office, of queen mother, throughout the Davidic Kingdom, as long as a Son of David was on the throne his mother was queen.

[Jer 44:9 9 Have you forgotten the wickedness committed by your fathers and by THE KINGS AND QUEENS OF JUDAH and the wickedness committed by you and your wives in the land of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem?] Jeremiah a prophet puts the office of queen along side the office of the kings of Judah in the house of David. Alas, more silence.

[REV12:1 And THERE APPEARED A GREAT WONDER in heaven A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN and the MOON UNDER HER FEET and **UPON HER HEAD A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS 2 And she being with child cried travailing in birth and pained to be delivered] The woman is a literal person=Mary, who literally gave birth to the child, and a collective, symbolic of the Church, Old and New Covenant people of God.

[RV 12:5 And SHE BROUGHT FORTH A MAN CHILD who was TO RULE ALL NATIONS with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne] To rule ALL NATIONS, universal king, the child is a literal person=Christ and symbolic of the Davidic Kingdom.

 

[jlhargus]

Sorry, my friend, but that position just doesn’t exist - now or in the Messianic Kingdom yet to come. As told to Mary, the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father DAVID (not Solomon.) It’s the Davidic Kingdom, not the kingdom of Solomon. David didn’t elevate his mother. And as a side note, Mary’s line isn’t through Solomon but through Nathan (Lk. 3:31). Not that it would have mattered - there’s simply no such position prophesied or was announced by the angel to Mary.

JL: Scripture disagrees with you, according to scritpure there was an office of Queen Mother, as long as there was a Son of David on the throne and God never objected or rejected that office thru ANY PROPHET. That office continues as long as there is a SON of David on the throne of David. By the way David had no living mother to make queen, it is THE MOTHER OF THE SON of David who is queen mother.

If Mary’s son is the Son of David and King in David’s line, then Mary is Gebirah=Queen Mother in the regenerated spiritual Kingdom of Israel in the line of king David=Kingdom of God. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase OF HIS GOVERNMENT and peace THERE SHALL BE NO END, UPON THE THRONE OF DAVID, and upon HIS KINGDOM, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even FOR EVER. The zeal of THE LORD of hosts WILL PERFORM THIS.

[Jer 13:18 Say to THE KING and to THE QUEEN MOTHER, Come down from YOUR THRONES, for your glorious CROWNS will fall from your heads. 19 The cities in the Negev will be shut up, and there will be no one to open them. All Judah will be carried into exile, carried completely away.] Jeremiah a PROPHET of God, calls BOTH their CROWNS GLORIOUS, seems God had no problem with the office of Queen Mother.

[1Kgs2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And THE KING ROSE up TO MEET HER, AND BOWED HIMSELF UNTO HER, and sat down on his throne, AND CAUSED A SEAT TO BE SET FOR THE KING’S MOTHER; and SHE SAT ON HIS RIGHT HAND.] Mk10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

[REV 11:19 And THE TEMPLE OF GOD WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN and THERE WAS SEEN in his temple THE ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail RV 12:1 And THERE APPEARED A GREAT WONDER in heaven A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN and the MOON UNDER HER FEET and UPON HER HEAD A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS 2 And she being with child cried travailing in birth and pained to be delivered] The woman is a person=Mary and a collective, symbolic of the Church, Old and New Covenant people of God. Twelve stars, universal queen, queen of heaven and earth.

[RV 12:5 And SHE BROUGHT FORTH A MAN CHILD who was TO RULE ALL NATIONS with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne] To rule ALL NATIONS, universal king, the child is a person=Christ and collective, symbolic of the Davidic Kingdom.
Jer 52:1 ZEDIKIAH was twenty-one years old when he became KING, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. HIS MOTHER’S NAME was HAMUTAL, daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.

2 Kgs 21:1 MANASSEH was twelve years old when he became KING, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. HIS MOTHER’S NAME was HEPHZIBAH.

2 Kgs 8:26 Two and twenty years old was AHAZIAH when he began to reign; and HE REIGNED one year in Jerusalem. And HIS MOTHER’S NAME WAS ATHALIAH, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

Jer 44:9 9 Have you forgotten the wickedness committed by your fathers and by THE KINGS AND QUEENS OF JUDAH and the wickedness committed by you and your wives in the land of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem?

1Kgs8:20 And THE LORD HATH PERFORMED HIS WORD that he spake, and I AM RISEN UP in the room of David my father, AND SIT ON THE THRONE OF ISRAEL, AS THE LORD PROMISED, AND have BUILT AN HOUSE FOR the name of THE LORD GOD OF ISRAEL. 21 And I HAVE SET THERE A PLACE FOR THE ARK, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.

 

[jlhargus]

And the fact is,** not even Christ is reigning as King yet**. Presently He shares His heavenly Father’s throne in heaven functioning there as the believer’s High Priest. However, He will rightfully ascend His father David’s throne in Jerusalem at His second Advent. Just as Mary was told. But Gabriel said nothing of a throne for Mary - nothing!

JL: Again scripture disagree with you. Who then is reigning as our king in the line of David? How can we be translated into HIS kingdom if there is no kingdom? [Col1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and **HATH TRANSLATED US INTO THE KINGDOM OF HIS DEAR SON: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:]

Rm15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, REJOICE, ye GENTILES, WITH HIS PEOPLE. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, ESAIAS SAITH, There shall be A ROOT OF JESSE, and he that SHALL RISE TO REIGN OVER THE GENTILES; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Eph5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD.] There is only ONE KINGDOM, the Davidic Kingdom and Christ the Son of David is it’s king forever. There is no such thing as two kingdoms one Heavenly and one Earthly. That’s a tradition of men, made a doctrine of God, to nullify the Word of God.

Hb1:8 But unto THE SON he saith, THY THRONE, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[1Cor15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s AT HIS COMING. 24 **THEN COMETH THE END, WHEN HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, EVEN THE FATHER; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 FOR HE MUST REIGN, TILL HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.] You need to stop reading those RAPTURE, traditions of men books and start reading the actual Word of God.] It seems your contradict scripture alot.

Just as Mary was told. But Gabriel said nothing of a throne for Mary – nothing!

JL: Yes just as Mary was told, [Lk 1:31 And, behold, THOU SHALT CONCEIVE in thy womb, AND BRING FORTH A SON, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED the SON OF THE HIGHEST: and THE LORD GOD SHALL GIVE UNTO HIM **THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 HE WILL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER, his kingdom will have no end.]

 

[JustaServant]

JL: Again scripture disagree with you. Who then is reigning as our king in the line of David? How can we be translated into HIS kingdom if there is no kingdom? [Col1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and **HATH TRANSLATED US INTO THE KINGDOM OF HIS DEAR SON

: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:]

Rm15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, REJOICE, ye GENTILES, WITH HIS PEOPLE. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, ESAIAS SAITH, There shall be A ROOT OF JESSE, and he that SHALL RISE TO REIGN OVER THE GENTILES; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Eph5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD.] There is only ONE KINGDOM, the Davidic Kingdom and Christ the Son of David is it’s king forever. There is no such thing as two kingdoms one Heavenly and one Earthly. That’s a tradition of men, made a doctrine of God, to nullify the Word of God.

Hb1:8 But unto THE SON he saith, THY THRONE, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[1Cor15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s AT HIS COMING. 24 **THEN COMETH THE END, WHEN HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, EVEN THE FATHER; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 FOR HE MUST REIGN, TILL HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.] You need to stop reading those RAPTURE, traditions of men books and start reading the actual Word of God.] It seems your contradict scripture alot.

JL: Yes just as Mary was told, [Lk 1:31 And, behold, THOU SHALT CONCEIVE in thy womb, AND BRING FORTH A SON, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED the SON OF THE HIGHEST: and THE LORD GOD SHALL GIVE UNTO HIM **THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 HE WILL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER, his kingdom will have no end.]

Great post.
Maybe when Moon comes back he can explain a King who has no throne.

 

[jlhargus]

Great post.
Maybe when Moon comes back he can explain a King who has no throne.

JL: Thanks JS, yes I would also like to see scripture for two kingdoms.