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PRmerger
Guest
If this woman formally left the Catholic Church then she is not bound by the laws of the Catholic Church.
If she remained a Catholic then she is required to follow valid form when seeking marriage.
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If she remained a Catholic then she is required to follow valid form when seeking marriage.
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TimothyH
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Roy5
Guest
Is joining a Protestant Church considered formally leaving the Catholic Church? I’ve read that roughly 30,000,000 Americans have left the Catholic Church? Does that mean they have formally notified the Catholic Church? I guess I’m asking: do Catholic Churches carefully keep communicant rolls? Or, is much of it guess work? Here the Church asks to register with a parish? Some parishes also have conducted a census? Is that where membership figures come from?
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PRmerger
Guest
No. I believe a letter to one’s bishop is required in order to be considered as officially having left.
Yes, Catholic churches keep careful records of baptisms, first communions, confirmations and weddings.
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Good_Fella
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KathleenGee
Guest
I have to step in here…
Baptism is the sacrament that incorporates us into the Body of Christ…and subsequently…all baptized Christians are baptized into the Catholic Church … even if they are members of another church or denomination…that is why we refer to ‘our separated brethren’ when we pray for Christian unity at Mass.
There is a grace of Christ at work…always present in that person…a tiny little spot of the living Christ always present within them. If they decide to reject Him at death, they do. What happens after that is God’s concern.
Many people experience ‘coming home’, when they enter into the Catholic Church.
All they have to do is affirm the Creed, belief in the sacraments…which can happen in one session with pastor knowledge, and they are full fledged Catholics. They prepare for confession and Holy Communion like we had to. Usually they are confirmed by the pastor at the same time…
When people aren’t going to Mass, if they were known by the pastor, he will eventually wonder where they have been lately…and we do parish census from time to time to catch up on everyone. But normally, no attempt is made to reach out to them, except ongoing programs for those who have been away for awhile. We respect peoples’ privacy and choices. There is also a parish program, “Landings”, which is geared for fallen away Catholics who are coming back home.
Baptism is the sacrament that incorporates us into the Body of Christ…and subsequently…all baptized Christians are baptized into the Catholic Church … even if they are members of another church or denomination…that is why we refer to ‘our separated brethren’ when we pray for Christian unity at Mass.
There is a grace of Christ at work…always present in that person…a tiny little spot of the living Christ always present within them. If they decide to reject Him at death, they do. What happens after that is God’s concern.
Many people experience ‘coming home’, when they enter into the Catholic Church.
All they have to do is affirm the Creed, belief in the sacraments…which can happen in one session with pastor knowledge, and they are full fledged Catholics. They prepare for confession and Holy Communion like we had to. Usually they are confirmed by the pastor at the same time…
When people aren’t going to Mass, if they were known by the pastor, he will eventually wonder where they have been lately…and we do parish census from time to time to catch up on everyone. But normally, no attempt is made to reach out to them, except ongoing programs for those who have been away for awhile. We respect peoples’ privacy and choices. There is also a parish program, “Landings”, which is geared for fallen away Catholics who are coming back home.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, I am correct.
See this from Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin:
jimmyakin.org/2006/04/formal_defectio.html
Also, just a friendly question to you, Roy-are you familiar with the quote feature here on the CAFs?
It appears that all your posts are not addressed to any one–or, you will simply address the poster by name without quoting their posts.
The reason that I ask is if you are familiar with this function, why don’t you use it?
It does make it appear as if you are not in *dialogue *with anyone but merely pontificating in a general, “I don’t really care what’s been said before, but here’s what I want to say!”
I hope that this is not construed as a criticism, but only as a general curiosity.
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TimothyH
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CopticChristian
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Roy,
You are not making any sense. The first video is of a Catholic Baptism and the second a Methodist baptism. In the Catholic Baptism the Priest says "baptized in the Faith of the Church.
youtube.com/watch?v=_LB5zL2apiw
youtube.com/watch?v=YQEeJFQqyfU
Here is an article of faith of the United Methodist.
So you say a baby baptized in a Catholic baptism is counted as Catholic and the priest says baptized in the faith of the Church.
The Methodist say a mark of Christian discipleship.
So Roy, is the baptism of faith in the Church for a Catholic considered baptism into a Christian Church? This is yes or no. If yes then baptism as a Catholic is baptism into a Christian Church and one is counted as Christian. If no then you should explain why this is so.
Please explain yourself.
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Roy5
Guest
Sorry, CopticChristian, but I guess I haven’t made it clear. Let me try one more time and then forget it.
** When a baby is baptized by a priest **in a Catholic Church that baby is viewed and counted as a Catholic. Is that right?
** Methodists, by the way, ‘sprinkle’ babies** (as Catholics do), but if a person is old enough to take his or her own vows of baptism they normally are offered three modes of Baptisms: sprinkling, pouring or immersion. Methodists believe that the amount of water is unimportant when compared to the sincerity of the vows.
** God bless everybody**. It’s one and the same God, after all, and I find it difficult to believe that he shows favoritism. My opinion is that the Lord looks at our hearts and not at our church affiliation. See Matt. 25, again, and re-read the parable of the Good Samaritan where a ‘heretic’ is praised for his kindness and not for his creed.
** When a baby is baptized by a priest **in a Catholic Church that baby is viewed and counted as a Catholic. Is that right?
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**When a baby is baptized by a pastor in a Methodist (or Presbyterian or UCC) Church** that baby is viewed as a Christian but not counted as a Methodist etc. until that baby becomes 12-13 and takes his/her vows of Confirmation. Then that child becomes a Methodist (or Presbyterian or UCC) and counted as a member of that particular church.
Can I be any clearer?
** As for Baptists,** they practice 'believer's baptism', which means that they do not Baptize babies but await such a time as the child is old enough to take his/her own vows. At that time the person is both Baptized and welcomed/received into the official church family. They believe that they are following the example of Christ whom the Bible says was baptized in the Jordan River at age 30. They also insist upon immersion because they believe that Jesus was immersed. Baptists generally 'dedicate' babies, which is a ceremony in which the parents promise to raise the child in the Christian faith.
Now, is this all clear?
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**In some countries** - like Canada and Australia - Methodists, Presbyterians and Congregationalists have merged to become one church. They have found it easy to agree sufficiently to make such a merge possible. This can happen because they are not dogmatic and permit different points of view on theology, etc.
**You also will find that many congregations, especially in rural areas, have merged or federated.** Perhaps a Congregational and Baptist church federate, or a Methodist and Presbyterian church, etc. It would take too long (and probably bore you) to go into all this, but there is considerable cooperation among most mainline Protestant denominations. People easily go from one denomination to another - when they move, for example. They may go to a Methodist church in one town, perhaps to a Presbyterian church in another. Many factors play a role, among them distance, pastor's preaching, Sunday School and youth program, choirs, worship tradition, etc. Theology plays a minor role with most mainline Protestants. You very rarely find the attitude that one denomination is correct and the rest all are wrong.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: The norm for baptizing in the Church is pouring not sprinkling. Although sprinkling is valid I have never seen it done. My understanding is it would only be used in an emergency. Also immersion if requested can be done. Some years ago in my present parish. Putting in an immersion baptismal font was looked into. Configuring the church was expensive and it went by the way side.
JL: And the resut of all those individual congregations federating is nothing more than another denomination and more division. You still have Congregationalist, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterians. Now a new denomination called United Chruch of Christ. What’s the point? It never ceases to amaze me. As I see it it’s throwing out the gospel making truth of no concern producing yet another new denomination. They only add another division to the already thousands.
JL: Yes it is the same God but not the same Gospel Christ delivered. God doesn’t show favoritism but He is not indifferent to truth. [Jn8:32 ye shall know the truth, and THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE.] He doesn’t approve false teachers. According to scripture. 2Pt2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in DAMNABLE HERESIES, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; BY reason of WHOM THE WAY OF TRUTH shall be evil spoken of.]
To whom much is given much is required. With Catholics more is required because we have the fullness of the truth and no excuse. That’s why Paul calls the Church the PILLAR and GROUND of TRUTH. Christ promised to lead His people INTO ALL TRUTH not guess work or indifference to truth. Jn1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
2Jn1: 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in THE DOCTRINE of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 IF there come ANY unto you, and bring not THIS DOCTRINE, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
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Roy5
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jlhargus
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It doesn't trouble me that you have a different point of view, because I firmly believe that Christianity should be wide enough and tolerant enough to permit disagreement. Those early Christians certainly had their differences, and once one position became set in stone those who felt differently often were burned at the stake or perhaps murdered on some torture machine. Sounds like Jesus, doesn't it, the Jesus who told us to love another? Such a stain on the history of the Church!
I come from a mixed Catholic and Protestant heritage. One person on our family tree was the first Archbishop of Canada (Quebec). What has driven me away from traditional Catholicism is the very dogmatism which is so often expressed here on CAF. I have decided to trust in God alone, trying my best to be a worthy disciple of Jesus, and not worry about heresies, infallible dogmas, etc. The God I believe in isn't totalitarian - one way or the highway. My Lord honors the human mind as it thinks, explores, learns, investigates, weighs and even doubts. I praise God for the gift of an inquiring mind. It is a joy and exciting to have the power and right to think freely.
God bless everybody.
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, only disagreement on the things that you agree are permissible to disagree on, correct?
I mean you really wouldn’t tolerate the view of a Christian who proclaims that women have no souls, right?
And you wouldn’t agree that Christianity ought to accept that anyone can take the Host and bring it home to perform their Satanic rituals with it, yes?
And you wouldn’t offer an letter of invitation to a preacher who believed that God hates homosexuals, eh?
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CopticChristian
Guest
Roy,
Is a Catholic a Christian, yes or no?
If you say yes then when the baby is baptized that baby is counted as a Universal Christian a member of the world wide family of God. Catholic means Universal Christian or world wide Christian. If you say no then explain yourself.
You are saying that a Methodist is baptized as a Christian and is not a member of any family untile it becomes a member later and joins the Methodist Church.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Roy,
Sin covers a multitude of actions. You will need to wrestle with this, the words of Jesus himself…
concordances.org/greek/264.htm
Trespass or sin means missing the mark. If you look at this and try to reconcile your liberal attitude you will have to ask if you can miss the mark, if you can trespass, then there is some standard against which actions are judged and your notion of liberality becomes difficult to live…
Jesus is not saying to build a bridge is He?
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CopticChristian
Guest
Roy,
You like statistics. You should look at the Barna Group. They run studies all the time like this one…
barna.org/teens-next-gen-articles/528-six-reasons-young-christians-leave-church
They do lots of studies…check it out.
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Roy5
Guest
CopticChristian
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I am well aware of the Barna studies.
Of course Catholics are Christians. Protestants are Christians. Even Mormons are Christians, but their theology is so wildly different from other Christians that they have to be seen in a different light. Same with, for example, Christian Scientists and Jehovah Witnesses.
It's not up to me - by the way - to determine who is Christian and who isn't. I'll leave that up to God. And I also have enormous respect for non-Christians who, in effect, seek to follow the Golden Rule. I have spent time in Egypt, India, Korea, and Japan (plus four pilgrimages to the Holy Land) and am not about to lambast Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists. Decent and brilliant people come 'in all races, colors and creeds'. Most people who attack other faiths are basically ignorant of the depth of those religions.
The other day I sat by a woman at dinner, a casual friend with whom I had never discussed religion. The current presidential campaign led us into the subject. It turned out that she has six children, all of whom went to parochial school. None attends Mass faithfully today. Two go Christmas and Easter. Two are agnostic and unchurched.. One has become an evangelical Protestant and another had become a Methodist. A grandson is studying to become a Protestant chaplain in higher education.
The Catholic Church and mainline Protestants both are under assault, and losing here in the western world (both are growing, of course, in third world countries). Why waste time and effort criticizing one another when the faith is under serious assault?
God bless everybody.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: I see my different point of view did greatly trouble you, although that was not my intention. Your post reveals just how intolerant you really are of others views. I seem to recall the Puritians, from which Congregationalism came, killed those who were different calling them witches.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Roy,
This is your original statement.
You say “of course Catholics and Protestants are Christians”…then your statements should read…
When a Catholic/Christian baby born into a Catholic/Christian family is baptized that baby is counted as Catholic Christian.
When a baby born into a Methodist/Protestant/Christian family is baptized that baby is counted as Protestant/Christian.
So what is your point in differentiating in your original statement?
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Roy5
Guest
CopticChristian. Gosh, forgive me if you seem to come across as picky. I think what I wrote several times is perfectly clear. A baby baptized in a Catholic church is viewed and counted as Catholic. Catholic Christian, if you like. All Catholics, of course, are Christian. A baptized baby baptized in a Methodist church is not counted as a Methodist until he/she becomes confirmed as a church member. Now, why does that seem to confuse you? Perhaps you are simply too unfamiliar with Protestantism and its variations.
JL It’s true that the Puritans of Salem got swept up into a witch hunt back in the late 1600s and - what was it, 12 or 13? - a number of women (and one man) were executed. I certainly don’t defend such evil wherever it exists. However, in Europe between 20,000 and 30,000 ‘witches’ (some estimate 50,000!) were murdered by Christians, mostly by the Catholic Church. Protestants and Catholics both have been quite intolerant in the past. Isn’t it ironic that those professing their love of Christ would engage in such evil, when Jesus emphasized loving one another. As I recall the Vatican commended three Inquisitions - against the Cathars, against suspected Spanish converts (formerly Jews and Muslims) in Spain, and against Protestants. Even Thomas Aquinas called for the execution of ‘heretics’. I likely would have been put to death for my misgivings back then.
JL It’s true that the Puritans of Salem got swept up into a witch hunt back in the late 1600s and - what was it, 12 or 13? - a number of women (and one man) were executed. I certainly don’t defend such evil wherever it exists. However, in Europe between 20,000 and 30,000 ‘witches’ (some estimate 50,000!) were murdered by Christians, mostly by the Catholic Church. Protestants and Catholics both have been quite intolerant in the past. Isn’t it ironic that those professing their love of Christ would engage in such evil, when Jesus emphasized loving one another. As I recall the Vatican commended three Inquisitions - against the Cathars, against suspected Spanish converts (formerly Jews and Muslims) in Spain, and against Protestants. Even Thomas Aquinas called for the execution of ‘heretics’. I likely would have been put to death for my misgivings back then.
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This ceaseless bickering over the alleged errors and failings of fellow Christians is nauseating. It ought to cease and we should seek to serve God as brothers and sisters. Jesus said something about judging one another. In this community Catholics and Protestants (and others) work in healthy concert on a number of community projects, among them a soup kitchen, a food distribution center, and ecumenical services during the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, on Good Friday, and at Thanksgiving. I consider that wonderful - far better than petty carping. The YMCA, condemned by Catholic officialdom years ago because it was founded by Protestant laity, serves as an important catalyst for ecumenical and interfaith cooperation.
What has all this to do with Marian doctrines, subject of this thread? For those who can believe them and feel they are substantiated in scripture, fine. For those who can't, fine. What is so notorious about having different viewpoints? While some insist on conformity. I rejoice in the freedom to believe what we honestly can. Doctrine doesn't save us anyway. Our faith in Christ and our efforts to follow his example do.
God bless everybody.- Status