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deogratias
Guest
Darcee - you make some very good points about some men being uninvolved and nonsupportive Catholic parents - unfortunately the ones who need to see that are watching TV instead of visiting this forum.
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krazykatlady
Guest
To darcee- great post. Sure can’t argue with what you say.
To Labchick, concerning feminine spirituality and feminine theology, Donna Steichen documents it well in “UnGodly Rage” and Ann Carey in “Sisters in Crisis.”
Statements from crazed nuns about “the goddess within,” that the idea that the fetus is a person with a soul is a fabrication of the patriarchy, that we must discard masculine imagery about Jesus as Messiah and on and on. Then there are the nutty rituals they cook up. If you want to know more, read the books. They are quite interesting.
To Labchick, concerning feminine spirituality and feminine theology, Donna Steichen documents it well in “UnGodly Rage” and Ann Carey in “Sisters in Crisis.”
Statements from crazed nuns about “the goddess within,” that the idea that the fetus is a person with a soul is a fabrication of the patriarchy, that we must discard masculine imagery about Jesus as Messiah and on and on. Then there are the nutty rituals they cook up. If you want to know more, read the books. They are quite interesting.
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Iohannes
Guest
Mothers do have an enormous role in their son’s vocations, more than their fathers.
If a mother’s son becomes a priest, the newly ordained priest will wipe his hands on the the towel or family cloth. Later if the mother dies, the cloth gets burried with the mother.
However, the father’s role as the head of the family is to keep the Faith within the family, if the father is faithless there is a higher chance that the children will be faithless too.
yes, I think another problem is weak men and priests who allow the emasculation of the liturgy and PC liberal homilies.
Men do have a greater burden, and we must lift it.
I am an altar server, but only served the TLM where the distinct lines between the laity and priest is clearly drawn.
If a mother’s son becomes a priest, the newly ordained priest will wipe his hands on the the towel or family cloth. Later if the mother dies, the cloth gets burried with the mother.
However, the father’s role as the head of the family is to keep the Faith within the family, if the father is faithless there is a higher chance that the children will be faithless too.
yes, I think another problem is weak men and priests who allow the emasculation of the liturgy and PC liberal homilies.
Men do have a greater burden, and we must lift it.
I am an altar server, but only served the TLM where the distinct lines between the laity and priest is clearly drawn.
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firemnbob
Guest
I don’t know if I can accurately answer this poll. I believe that the roles of men and women within the church have been altered and that has caused a decrease in the desire of men to seek vocations within the church and women to seek the sisterhood, but that does not mean that we men are weak or that women are the only cause of the decrease in the priesthood. The Roles of men and women in society are out of balance. Men no longer feel like they need to be leaders and women no longer want to follow, that is some of both kinds, NOT all men or women. But through this unbalanced culture, we are going against our Church’s desires for us. Men are to be the spiritual and physical head of the house, but not just our domeciles. This is to mean Our House, the church. Now, I am NOT saying kick the women to the pews or stop them from taking part in the mass. What I am saying is, in order for us men to fulfill our duties to God and to our families, we need to step up and be willing to take on the responsibilities passed on to us by our church fathers. But for us to do that, we need to feel that we have the backing of the women in our lives. If we feel inadequate in our abilities to lead the Church forward, then we will be less willing to take that responsibility. Work needs to be done on both sides. We, as men, are not called to by tyrants, but to be leaders who are strong, yet fair. . .that is where the balance is. Of course, this is all IMHO.
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Pro_Iesu
Guest
Please do not be offended if I have parts capitalzied or seem harsh I include myself as one of the dumbfounded.
In my area I think there is a larger male presence in the liturgy. Its wonderful that women participate in the Mass but only where approved. If the allowance into certain lay ministries results in an attempt at female preisthood, false teachings etc then I would be against it. But as far as I have seen/heard MOST women (sadly not all) accept the church’s teachings. :clapping:
As for getting more men to particiapate don’t sit around dumbfounded do something! Pray, invite your friends, your husbands your sons(and men do the same for your daughters and wives its a two way thing), give them materials to read, take them to shirnes, take them to adoration, take them to recieve the sacraments, visit cathedrals with relics, visit areas with eucharistic as well as other miracles, talk with your priests, teach the faith. complaining gets nothing done(trust me after complaining to my mom about chores etc it just takes longer!).
We must all chip in. Maybe we work with one person a year. If we each trully convert or reconvert just one person a year and they do the same we’ll make up for our lost ground within a couple of years! PEOPLE WANT THE TRUTH and as catholics we have it. So lets give them what they want, let us be the salt of the earth and bring the flavor back to Mass, evangelization, culture, liturgy, the priesthood. If we God’s chosen do nothing then who will?
I pray that we all can work to make ourselves, our church, our priests, our families, our culture, nation, friends, and world more holy! We can do it guys but we must not let others take our slack we gotta do our part, with our charisms, our talents. My family in christ we must do our part to glorify God and Spread his kingdom. If all you can do is pray then pray, if you can use your voice to preach then use it, if you have knowledge apply it etc.
I’ll pray for y’all and for our Church.
Peace and God Bless!
In my area I think there is a larger male presence in the liturgy. Its wonderful that women participate in the Mass but only where approved. If the allowance into certain lay ministries results in an attempt at female preisthood, false teachings etc then I would be against it. But as far as I have seen/heard MOST women (sadly not all) accept the church’s teachings. :clapping:
As for getting more men to particiapate don’t sit around dumbfounded do something! Pray, invite your friends, your husbands your sons(and men do the same for your daughters and wives its a two way thing), give them materials to read, take them to shirnes, take them to adoration, take them to recieve the sacraments, visit cathedrals with relics, visit areas with eucharistic as well as other miracles, talk with your priests, teach the faith. complaining gets nothing done(trust me after complaining to my mom about chores etc it just takes longer!).
We must all chip in. Maybe we work with one person a year. If we each trully convert or reconvert just one person a year and they do the same we’ll make up for our lost ground within a couple of years! PEOPLE WANT THE TRUTH and as catholics we have it. So lets give them what they want, let us be the salt of the earth and bring the flavor back to Mass, evangelization, culture, liturgy, the priesthood. If we God’s chosen do nothing then who will?
I pray that we all can work to make ourselves, our church, our priests, our families, our culture, nation, friends, and world more holy! We can do it guys but we must not let others take our slack we gotta do our part, with our charisms, our talents. My family in christ we must do our part to glorify God and Spread his kingdom. If all you can do is pray then pray, if you can use your voice to preach then use it, if you have knowledge apply it etc.
I’ll pray for y’all and for our Church.
Peace and God Bless!
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RCEllis
Guest
The structure of the poll is so biased and insulting it defies reason.
Clint
Clint
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OhioBob
Guest
Can you elaborate?
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Trinitatem
Guest
Not to sound so cliche’d, but what would Jesus do? Truly, if we asked this question, what do you think his response would be?
Secondly, what do you think, if not these specifically, women’s roles should be in the church?
Sadly, society has changed so much, that it leaks into the church. I believe in serving one’s husband and God, something that, for me, was set into motion when I made this vow during the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. But on my spiritual journey, I have become closer to Jesus, and the Church, and want to devote myself more. I did not realize, as many may not, that female laity is offensive to many. I think truly some do it to be united to Jesus, and to offer themselves to him. I don’t think this is always done in the spirit of “and I also think women should be priests - hah!” I think we need to be educated and guided in the BEST way we can serve Jesus, and follow the his (the church’s teachings). I am slightly horrified, to be honest, about what I’ve read and the emotions that are attached to it, because I honestly thought it would be beautiful to become a eucharistic minister. But now, I think perhaps, it will be something I will not do, for it offends some, who truly believe this is against church teachings.
Secondly, what do you think, if not these specifically, women’s roles should be in the church?
Sadly, society has changed so much, that it leaks into the church. I believe in serving one’s husband and God, something that, for me, was set into motion when I made this vow during the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. But on my spiritual journey, I have become closer to Jesus, and the Church, and want to devote myself more. I did not realize, as many may not, that female laity is offensive to many. I think truly some do it to be united to Jesus, and to offer themselves to him. I don’t think this is always done in the spirit of “and I also think women should be priests - hah!” I think we need to be educated and guided in the BEST way we can serve Jesus, and follow the his (the church’s teachings). I am slightly horrified, to be honest, about what I’ve read and the emotions that are attached to it, because I honestly thought it would be beautiful to become a eucharistic minister. But now, I think perhaps, it will be something I will not do, for it offends some, who truly believe this is against church teachings.
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deogratias
Guest
Well that’s impossible because only priests can be Eucharistic Ministers and only men can be priests.
But you probably meant Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion.
The word “extraordinary” is important here regardless of gender.
This said, I think there are mixed motives for people becoming lay ministers - some as you say truly are looking for ecclesiastical ways to serve Christ. Others like being in the spotlight.
What we often overlook though is the best way to serve Christ is in our daily lives. I believe you are truly serving him every day with your vocation as a wife and mother.
The #! 1 thing Christ wants us to do is save souls. No one has more opportunity to do this than does a parent. Jesus does not care if we buy them a CD player or designer clothing. He only wants us to give them good Faith Formation and Moral upbringing and to teach them to love him and serve him in this life and work to being happy with him in the next. Something we all should remember.
So you are doing good wife and mother, just keep it up.
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RCEllis
Guest
The question was “Does the presence of women in approved liturgical roles discourage male involvement?” - Response 1 forces the respondent to go quite a bit further than that, saying that it will “drive them away from the Church and the priesthood”
Response 2 and 4 similarly force on the respondant to express editorial comment that is either dismissive, apparently biggoted, or stupid.
Answer 3 is so patently politically correct as to emit a sickly green glow.
An even-handed poll would have used the same question and offered a bias-neutral set of options: (1) Agree (2) Somewhat Agree (3) Neither Agree nor Disagree (4) Somewhat Disagree (5) Disagree.
Of course this poll is nearly meaningless in any event - triple self-selection on the part of the participants.
Clint
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Trinitatem
Guest
Thanks, that’s beautiful. I have felt God’s gentle guidance to serving Him by raising my children according to His will. I think sometimes when we go through something - as in receiving an actual grace - we start to try to find ways to serve Him like saints, when in actuality He is just confirming His love for us and His support of our vocation, urging us to perfect it, and to bear everything in peace, and in patience.
I have to say thanks again, because when I wrote my response, I was going through some internal struggles in my vocation, and barely hanging in there. I appreciate, more than you can know, your words of wisdom.
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deogratias
Guest
You are welcome and thank you too for giving me an opportunity to serve HIM.
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OhioBob
Guest
My, I wasn’t aware that the statistical validity of the poll was going to be challenged here. I guess I could have structured it in a more professional way. My bad.
The responses were all ones that I have heard on these forums (maybe with a bit of, what was your charitable description? - oh yeah, dismissiveness, bigotry and stupidity - thrown in for fun
) with regard to lay women serving in approved liturgical roles.I guess I was a bit frustrated from other threads when I put it together, hence the satirical bent to the responses. However, those sentiments are all pretty common, even in other responses on this thread.
There are plenty of comments on the forums that accuse the presence of women in approved liturgical roles of being the root cause of the vocational crisis, liturgical experimentation, and everything short of global warming.
Response #1, while perhaps being a bit extreme, is a pretty common sentiment, particularly among the TLM crowd.
Response #2 is my own opinion, that men have a responsibility for their own faith and their own liturgical fortitude. As a man, I’m tired of reading the implication that the presence of women (again, in approved roles) somehow diminishes my weak, sponge-like liturgical commitment.
Response #3 is factually correct (except for the “hooey” part, but the moderators would get me if I used a stronger word) - there are approved lay roles that are open to men and women equally. Maybe I missed something…
Response #4, while obviously tongue-in-cheek, paraphrases an opinion that is expressed rather often on these boards.
So I guess that’s my reasoning. I had hoped that it would spark some discussion, and it seems like it did, so hopefully some people got the intent.
I’m sorry if you felt that the poll was beneath you. I will now sulk away to repair my damaged ego.
Blessings.
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pnewton
Guest
You wanted discussion and you got it. I would not feel bad about that. As far as the statistical validity, talking about that in these forums is a lot about watching SpongeBob Square Pants and criticizing how it reflects on the meaning of life.I’m sorry if you felt that the poll was beneath you. I will now sulk away to repair my damaged ego.
Blessings.
The polls are mostly for fun.
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OhioBob
Guest
People can criticize my poll all they want, but they’d better not criticize SpongeBob!
Some folks on these boards eat too many Crabbypatties.
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Emmy
Guest
I don’t feel threatened, and it doesn’t seem that you do either. Good for us.
QUOTE]
I don´t think men are threatened but here you are talking about they can feel threatened. That is quite something else. I think it is possible there are men who FEEL threatened.
Emmy
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Greg_McPherran
Guest
The young woman who sings at our Church seems so kind and she has such a beautiful voice. I mean beautiful. This truly helps me to see the love of God. Only God could create such beauty (voice that is - I don’t want to get in trouble with my wife 
).
).
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luckyirishguy14
Guest
This is an interesting question. As an altarboy, I’m not threatened by the “altargirls”, but maybe some of the eucharistic ministers, lectors, and cantors are. Probably the only reason why is because females now dominate in those categories. You don’t see many more male cantors, and only about half of the eucharistic ministers in my parish are men. So I just think it’s the domination of certain tasks by women have possibly threatened (but more like discouraged) the male participation.
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Mike_C
Guest
I agree with the last poster. I have been to Masses where the only male on the altar is the priest. I think that most men and boys are discouraged by women, for participating.
I read a book entitled “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” The author makes a note that most Catholic hymns are suited for women (In High C). I believe that is another feminization too.
I read a book entitled “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” The author makes a note that most Catholic hymns are suited for women (In High C). I believe that is another feminization too.
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LabChick
Guest
So I just think it’s the domination of certain tasks by women have possibly threatened (but more like discouraged) the male participation.
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I have always attributed the decline in male participation to the “bystander effect.” That is, either men see the role is already filled so they don’t feel compelled to volunteer or they think another man will volunteer.
When I entered medical school, I was discouraged by my family, by the faculty, and by fellow students. They said I was taking a “man’s place” in a “man’s profession.” Despite the discouragement, I stayed in med school because I felt called to be a physician so I stuck with it.
If men want to be lectors (or cantors or altar boys), they need to suck it up and volunteer.
Mike C:
). Keep in mind that “traditional” Catholic hymns were never intended for ordinary folks to sing. That and a lack of understanding of music contribute to tone deaf congregations.
BTW, who’s the author? I’d like to add this book to my reading list.
[/quote]
I have always attributed the decline in male participation to the “bystander effect.” That is, either men see the role is already filled so they don’t feel compelled to volunteer or they think another man will volunteer.
When I entered medical school, I was discouraged by my family, by the faculty, and by fellow students. They said I was taking a “man’s place” in a “man’s profession.” Despite the discouragement, I stayed in med school because I felt called to be a physician so I stuck with it.
If men want to be lectors (or cantors or altar boys), they need to suck it up and volunteer.
Mike C:
I can’t really see how that is a feminization. Most of the hymns I know are in the universal keys of G or D (the key of 90% of rock music
). Keep in mind that “traditional” Catholic hymns were never intended for ordinary folks to sing. That and a lack of understanding of music contribute to tone deaf congregations.BTW, who’s the author? I’d like to add this book to my reading list.
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