Are Mormons allowed to drink...

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Paul,

I have indeed begged the Lord for forgiveness for all those that I led astray in the teaching of false doctrines. Thankfully the sacrament of reconciliation has enabled me to receive the absolution of the Lord.

as far keeping what I now see to be wrongful covenants with false Gods, I look to the example of St. Paul. He certainly was in a similar situation before accepting the one true God.
paul barlow:
well as an older british person there probably should be a ban on basket ball especialy if your short like me.
I did get a chuckle on this. I was never good at basketball but it was always the activity of choice in the LDS churches that I attended.

God bless you.
 
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majick275:
Paul,

I have indeed begged the Lord for forgiveness for all those that I led astray in the teaching of false doctrines. Thankfully the sacrament of reconciliation has enabled me to receive the absolution of the Lord.

as far keeping what I now see to be wrongful covenants with false Gods, I look to the example of St. Paul. He certainly was in a similar situation before accepting the one true God.

I did get a chuckle on this. I was never good at basketball but it was always the activity of choice in the LDS churches that I attended.

God bless you.
I too have begged the Lord’s forgiveness for baptizing Catholic Koreans into the LDS Church. LDS Korean converts do have a low retention rate and I hold out hope that those I converted to false doctrine have returned to God’s true church.
 
paul barlow:
no you have that bit wrong about brigham young wanting to stop money going out so he banned it.
I wanted to post some of the facts supporting my theory on this.

Leonard J. Arrington, now church historian, observed concerning the Word of Wisdom:
Code:
*The strong and increased emphasis on the Word of Wisdom which characterized the official Mormon attitude throughout the remainder of the century appears to have begun in 1867....

The explanation for these rules and the widespread resolves to obey the Word of Wisdom seems to lie in the conditions of the Mormon economy ... it was necessary for the Latter-day Saints to develop and maintain a self-sufficient economy in their Rocky Mountain retreat.... There must be no waste of liquid assets on imported consumers' goods.... Saints who used their cash to purchase imported Bull Durham, Battle-Axe plugs, tea, coffee, and similar "wasteful" (because not productive) products were
taking an action which was opposed to the economic interests of the territory. In view of this situation, President Young came to be unalterably opposed to the expenditure of money by the Saints on imported tea, coffee, and tobacco. It was consistent with the economics of the time that he should have had no great objection to tobacco chewing if the tobacco was grown locally. It was also consistent that he should have successfully developed a locally-produced "Mormon" tea to take the place of the imported article (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp.43-44).

Dr. Arrington quotes Brigham Young as saying:

I know of no better climate and soil than are here for the successful culture of tobacco. Instead of buying it in a foreign market and importing it over a thousand miles, why not raise it in our own country or do without it? ...

Tea is in great demand in Utah, and anything under that name sells readily at an extravagant price.... Tea can be produced in this Territory in sufficient quantities for home consumption, and if we raise it ourselves we know that we have the pure article. If we do not raise it, I would suggest that we do without it (Ibid., p.45).

In his sermons Brigham Young occasionally discussed the idea of Mormons producing their own tea, coffee, tobacco and whiskey:

You know that we all profess to believe the "Word of Wisdom." There has been a great deal said about it.... We as Latter-day Saints, care but little about tobacco: but as "Mormons" we use a great deal.... The traders and passing emigration have sold tons of tobacco, besides what is sold here regularly. I say that $60,000 annually is the smallest figure I can estimate the sales at. Tobacco can be raised here as well as it can be raised in any other place. It wants attention and care. If we use it, let us raise it here. I recommend for some man to go to raising tobacco.... go to and make a business of raising tobacco and stop sending money out of the territory for that article.... We annually expend only $60,000 to break the "Word of Wisdom," and we can save the money and still break it, if we will break it (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.35).

It is true that we do not raise our own tobacco: we might raise it if we would. We do not raise our tea; but we might raise it if we would, for tea-raising, this is as good a country as China; and the coffee bean can be raised a short distance south of us.... We can sustain ourselves; and as for such so-called luxuries as tea, coffee, tobacco and whiskey, we can produce them or do without them (Ibid., vol. 11, pp.113-14).
This was all well after the WoW had been revealed. I still question why isn’t it made a commandment and defined in canonized scripture?
 
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arieh0310:
Not very charitable, Paul. When has Majick ever used invective like this in any of his posts?
satanic cult etc read what he put and then imagine i said it about your church
 
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Tmaque:
I too have begged the Lord’s forgiveness for baptizing Catholic Koreans into the LDS Church. LDS Korean converts do have a low retention rate and I hold out hope that those I converted to false doctrine have returned to God’s true church.
and how many active catholics are there compared to catholics of record i think our retention rate is better than yours. so whats your excuse for breaking you covenants.
 
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majick275:
I wanted to post some of the facts supporting my theory on this.

Leonard J. Arrington, now church historian, observed concerning the Word of Wisdom:
Code:
*The strong and increased emphasis on the Word of Wisdom which characterized the official Mormon attitude throughout the remainder of the century appears to have begun in 1867....

The explanation for these rules and the widespread resolves to obey the Word of Wisdom seems to lie in the conditions of the Mormon economy ... it was necessary for the Latter-day Saints to develop and maintain a self-sufficient economy in their Rocky Mountain retreat.... There must be no waste of liquid assets on imported consumers' goods.... Saints who used their cash to purchase imported Bull Durham, Battle-Axe plugs, tea, coffee, and similar "wasteful" (because not productive) products were
taking an action which was opposed to the economic interests of the territory. In view of this situation, President Young came to be unalterably opposed to the expenditure of money by the Saints on imported tea, coffee, and tobacco. It was consistent with the economics of the time that he should have had no great objection to tobacco chewing if the tobacco was grown locally. It was also consistent that he should have successfully developed a locally-produced "Mormon" tea to take the place of the imported article (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp.43-44).

Dr. Arrington quotes Brigham Young as saying:

I know of no better climate and soil than are here for the successful culture of tobacco. Instead of buying it in a foreign market and importing it over a thousand miles, why not raise it in our own country or do without it? ...

Tea is in great demand in Utah, and anything under that name sells readily at an extravagant price.... Tea can be produced in this Territory in sufficient quantities for home consumption, and if we raise it ourselves we know that we have the pure article. If we do not raise it, I would suggest that we do without it (Ibid., p.45).

In his sermons Brigham Young occasionally discussed the idea of Mormons producing their own tea, coffee, tobacco and whiskey:

You know that we all profess to believe the "Word of Wisdom." There has been a great deal said about it.... We as Latter-day Saints, care but little about tobacco: but as "Mormons" we use a great deal.... The traders and passing emigration have sold tons of tobacco, besides what is sold here regularly. I say that $60,000 annually is the smallest figure I can estimate the sales at. Tobacco can be raised here as well as it can be raised in any other place. It wants attention and care. If we use it, let us raise it here. I recommend for some man to go to raising tobacco.... go to and make a business of raising tobacco and stop sending money out of the territory for that article.... We annually expend only $60,000 to break the "Word of Wisdom," and we can save the money and still break it, if we will break it (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.35).

It is true that we do not raise our own tobacco: we might raise it if we would. We do not raise our tea; but we might raise it if we would, for tea-raising, this is as good a country as China; and the coffee bean can be raised a short distance south of us.... We can sustain ourselves; and as for such so-called luxuries as tea, coffee, tobacco and whiskey, we can produce them or do without them (Ibid., vol. 11, pp.113-14).
This was all well after the WoW had been revealed. I still question why isn’t it made a commandment and defined in canonized scripture?
i am glad that our teachings on the word of wisdom are still troubling you what other teachings are you hiding from. maybe your temple covenants .
 
paul barlow:
satanic cult etc read what he put and then imagine i said it about your church
uhhh… LDS leaders already have.

Here is what the LDS church teaches:
  1. “I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian churches), for they were all wrong…their creeds were an abomination in [God’s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19).
  2. “Orthodox Christian views of God are pagan rather than Christian” (Mormon Doctrine of Deity, B. H. Roberts [General Authority], 116).
  3. “Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast” (Journal of Discourses, John Taylor [3rd Mormon President], 13:225).
  4. “The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon” (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84).
  5. “All the priests who adhere to the sectarian [Christian] religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith, ed. Vol. 1, n. 4, 60).
  6. [Under the heading, “Church of the Devil,” Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] “The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).
  7. “Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Morm. 8; Moro. 8)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, Bruce R. McConkie, 177). *
and who can forget the sectarian minister from the old endowment ceremony?

I think it significant to note that this is a Catholic Answers forum. I certainly don’t post anything on any LDS boards or any other churches forums.

I also still claim a BIG distinction between claims about an institution (the LDS church in this case) and personal attacks against individual members.
 
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catsrus:
I don’t know how you came to the conclusion that I, in any way, said that anyone needs modern revelation. Hopefully, you were joking.
No, you may not set up any appointment. I’ve already had discussions with mormons at the door and have learned enough to know that The Holy Catholic Church is the One True Faith only.
Of course Christ has spoken these past 2K years; through the information he passed on to us through His appointed apostles and their successors, the Popes.
then you had better stop talking to all those other churches for if your church is the only true church. why are you communing with other churches that by your own words are not true and are therefore false churchs lead by the devil to decive.

then explain if your pope has recived modern revelation why you deny that there is any need for it. or do they just chat about the weather.
 
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majick275:
I wanted to post some of the facts supporting my theory on this.

Leonard J. Arrington, now church historian, observed concerning the Word of Wisdom:
Code:
*The strong and increased emphasis on the Word of Wisdom which characterized the official Mormon attitude throughout the remainder of the century appears to have begun in 1867....

The explanation for these rules and the widespread resolves to obey the Word of Wisdom seems to lie in the conditions of the Mormon economy ... it was necessary for the Latter-day Saints to develop and maintain a self-sufficient economy in their Rocky Mountain retreat.... There must be no waste of liquid assets on imported consumers' goods.... Saints who used their cash to purchase imported Bull Durham, Battle-Axe plugs, tea, coffee, and similar "wasteful" (because not productive) products were
taking an action which was opposed to the economic interests of the territory. In view of this situation, President Young came to be unalterably opposed to the expenditure of money by the Saints on imported tea, coffee, and tobacco. It was consistent with the economics of the time that he should have had no great objection to tobacco chewing if the tobacco was grown locally. It was also consistent that he should have successfully developed a locally-produced "Mormon" tea to take the place of the imported article (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp.43-44).

Dr. Arrington quotes Brigham Young as saying:

I know of no better climate and soil than are here for the successful culture of tobacco. Instead of buying it in a foreign market and importing it over a thousand miles, why not raise it in our own country or do without it? ...

Tea is in great demand in Utah, and anything under that name sells readily at an extravagant price.... Tea can be produced in this Territory in sufficient quantities for home consumption, and if we raise it ourselves we know that we have the pure article. If we do not raise it, I would suggest that we do without it (Ibid., p.45).

In his sermons Brigham Young occasionally discussed the idea of Mormons producing their own tea, coffee, tobacco and whiskey:

You know that we all profess to believe the "Word of Wisdom." There has been a great deal said about it.... We as Latter-day Saints, care but little about tobacco: but as "Mormons" we use a great deal.... The traders and passing emigration have sold tons of tobacco, besides what is sold here regularly. I say that $60,000 annually is the smallest figure I can estimate the sales at. Tobacco can be raised here as well as it can be raised in any other place. It wants attention and care. If we use it, let us raise it here. I recommend for some man to go to raising tobacco.... go to and make a business of raising tobacco and stop sending money out of the territory for that article.... We annually expend only $60,000 to break the "Word of Wisdom," and we can save the money and still break it, if we will break it (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.35).

It is true that we do not raise our own tobacco: we might raise it if we would. We do not raise our tea; but we might raise it if we would, for tea-raising, this is as good a country as China; and the coffee bean can be raised a short distance south of us.... We can sustain ourselves; and as for such so-called luxuries as tea, coffee, tobacco and whiskey, we can produce them or do without them (Ibid., vol. 11, pp.113-14).
This was all well after the WoW had been revealed. I still question why isn’t it made a commandment and defined in canonized scripture?
as you know and are afraid to admit the w of w is scripture and is doctrine or have you forgotten what you were teaching people.
 
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majick275:
uhhh… LDS leaders already have.

Here is what the LDS church teaches:
  1. “I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian churches), for they were all wrong…their creeds were an abomination in [God’s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19).
  2. “Orthodox Christian views of God are pagan rather than Christian” (Mormon Doctrine of Deity, B. H. Roberts [General Authority], 116).
  3. “Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast” (Journal of Discourses, John Taylor [3rd Mormon President], 13:225).
  4. “The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon” (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84).
  5. “All the priests who adhere to the sectarian [Christian] religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith, ed. Vol. 1, n. 4, 60).
  6. [Under the heading, “Church of the Devil,” Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] “The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).
  7. “Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Morm. 8; Moro. 8)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, Bruce R. McConkie, 177). *
and who can forget the sectarian minister from the old endowment ceremony?

I think it significant to note that this is a Catholic Answers forum. I certainly don’t post anything on any LDS boards or any other churches forums.

I also still claim a BIG distinction between claims about an institution (the LDS church in this case) and personal attacks against individual members.
again you clearly taught this and by your covenants that you freely entered into you promised to sacrifice all to preach and support it. and if you can reject things that you once held holy. how long will this one last. your last section is a laugh attacking a persons beliefs is worse.
 
and how pray tell is that any different than St. Paul in the bible?
 
read Acts Chapter 9

Saul thought that he was doing the Lords work in obedience to the high priest when he was persecuting christians. The Lord set him straight. He saw that he had been wrong. He disavowed his previous loyalties and served God.
 
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majick275:
read Acts Chapter 9

Saul thought that he was doing the Lords work in obedience to the high priest when he was persecuting christians. The Lord set him straight. He saw that he had been wrong. He disavowed his previous loyalties and served God.
so who did you persicute when you were a member. did you not love your neigbour. did you not study the articles of faith. where in your church meetings were you taught to hate. or did this come into your life later.
 
This was an example of changing religious comitments. NOT to be taken so literally. I was never a sanhedrin either and I am NOT claiming to have had a vision on the road to emmaus either. Please read the 9th chapter of Acts.
 
paul barlow:
i am glad that our teachings on the word of wisdom are still troubling you what other teachings are you hiding from. maybe your temple covenants .
I am not hiding from anything. I’m not a drinker or a smoker. I am faithful to my wife. I read the Bible and pray every day, go to church regularly. (not just sunday) I still pray that God will have mercy on me , a sinner, I do not deserve any of the wondrous blessings that He bestows on me. I am thankful for his mercy and forgiveness.

The WoW in and of itself does not bother me as much as the inconsistent way that it has been applied. I find it one of many examples of the self serving “revelations” used by early LDS leaders to deceive folks into thinking that were really prophets. These aren’t scriptures any more than the Koran or the Baghavad Gita.

I would think that even you would find many of the teachings “revealed” in the Journal of Discourses to be disturbing at the very least.
 
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majick275:
This was an example of changing religious comitments. NOT to be taken so literally. I was never a sanhedrin either and I am NOT claiming to have had a vision on the road to emmaus either. Please read the 9th chapter of Acts.
i have read it and modern scripture i know what i belive and i assume you claim the same. this is thread is not doing either of us any good i know i am right and you will claim the same. so lets end this arguement now.
 
Okay. But I still would like an answer to why some of the WoW is enforced but not all and why making it a commandment and defining its terms was never canonized. There is no wrong answer there or anything to argue over. I just want to know.
 
originally posted by Paul Barlow
then you had better stop talking to all those other churches for if your church is the only true church. why are you communing with other churches that by your own words are not true and are therefore false churchs lead by the devil to decive.
The mormons who came to my door were, unlike you, very polite and I enjoyed “communing” with them and learning some of what mormons believe and showing them some differences in their and my faith.
DO NOT put words into my mouth! I have NEVER said anything about other churches being lead by the devil! You need to get it under control Paul.
Instead of putting words in my mouth, why not go back to the Cain issue that you asked me to look up, I did, and now you refuse to explain the lds position?
 
paul barlow:
and how many active catholics are there compared to catholics of record i think our retention rate is better than yours. so whats your excuse for breaking you covenants.
Well, you couldn’t be more wrong about retention rates. I don’t consider my LDS covenants authentic because the LDS Church is false. Just as I wouldn’t consider a marriage valid if the wife turned out to be a man. Both are not what they purported to be.
 
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