J
jane_doe
Guest
Ok, my apologies. May I ask why you brought up the popular opinion?
- Status
J
JMM1957
Guest
Apology accepted.
You know as well as I do, that the Mormon church is the only church that associates itself with Christianity (I didn’t say you are Christian), that has added more supposedly inspired scripture to what already existed from the first century. All Christians that I am aware of, do not believe in continued divine public revelation after the Apostolic age. Its not public opinion, in that I took a poll of random people on the street. I can confidently say that the percentage of Christians that I gave, who deny continuing public revelation is factual. I didn’t need to bring it up (what you call popular opinion), because I believed it myself already from my study of the Scriptures, but nonetheless, I am aware that the predominant view of other Christian churches is the same as mine, so I mentioned it, that’s all. I know that you have no problem being in the minority view, Jehovah’s Witnesses for example, also are in the minority view with some of their beliefs, and they have no problem with it either.
J
jane_doe
Guest
Pardon me: if you don’t care about popular opinion, why bring it up at all? I feel like you tried to explain your reasoning and I’m just not understanding.Apology accepted.
J
JMM1957
Guest
I think I explained my reasoning about it thoroughly enough, if you’re not getting it, I don’t know what else I can say at this point, I did my best.
But…
I know what you are alluding to with the question about popular opinion. Personally, I don’t believe popular opinion is always on the right side of the truth, but in some, if not many cases, it is. Just as I used the example of the Mormon’s and JW’s being in the minority view on some of their beliefs compared to mainstream Christianity, doesn’t necessarily mean that they should be wrong. You, as a Mormon, were taught to believe that mainstream Christianity went astray in regards to the gospel, not long after the first century. In fact, the JW’s believe the same I think. As Catholics, we believe that the Church, after the Apostles, was going to suffer persecution, and it surely did. We also believe that “wolves in sheep’s clothing”, false prophet’s, heretics, etc. would attack the Church from within and without, and they surely did, and continues to do so, but the gates of hell will not prevail on the Church that Jesus Christ established before his death.
J
JMM1957
Guest
Originally Posted by JMM1957
I think the preponderance of evidence from those verses, and many others I could supply if needed, indicates that God the Father was understood to be a Spirit by the authors of the NT.
jane doe responded:
But only one verse even quasi addressed the topic, and does not say “God is a Spirit”.
I just found something on another thread where you said most LDS use the KJV of the Bible, and in that version, John 4:24 is translated “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
Comment?
I think the preponderance of evidence from those verses, and many others I could supply if needed, indicates that God the Father was understood to be a Spirit by the authors of the NT.
jane doe responded:
But only one verse even quasi addressed the topic, and does not say “God is a Spirit”.
I just found something on another thread where you said most LDS use the KJV of the Bible, and in that version, John 4:24 is translated “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
Comment?
Stephen168
New member
Zero percent of Christians believe the Father has a physical body because the bible says that God is spirit. The Mormon belief is just not Christian and Mormon beliefs are based on feelings. jane_doe feels like the Father has a body of flesh and bone and nothing we say will change her feelings. We are comfortable knowing that history, science, and reason are against the Mormon Church and for the Catholic Church.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
I do not believe you will get an answer, there is no LDS explanation for “Heavenly Mother” that allows her to actually be a “god” . She can’t be part of the LDS “godhead” and at the same time they can’t go saying only LDS men get to be “gods”. So no LDS will touch this.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
And zero percent of Christians believe God has to have a goddess wife in order to be God.
J
JMM1957
Guest
I have researched the LDS website itself, and have only found mention of the Heavenly Mother with no details whatsoever about her (maybe I didn’t look in the right place), how she came to be, what she looks like, etc. Also, no mention of how the Heavenly Mother and Father produce the spirit children, they just produce them and send them to earth to inhabit human bodies.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
That’s because she is nothing more than a god enabler. Just look to their teachings about women in general. Look to the teachings of Brigham Young and his contemporaries. Their goddess is a product of the teachings on plural marriage. The modern LDS church ignores what was taught during the polygamy era. It was all regarding gods needing multiple goddesses to procreate spirit children. …all about procreating as many progeny as possible for their god husband. All about enabling his “glory”. The modern LDS church won’t touch this.I have researched the LDS website itself, and have only found mention of the Heavenly Mother with no details whatsoever about her (maybe I didn’t look in the right place), how she came to be, what she looks like, etc. Also, no mention of how the Heavenly Mother and Father produce the spirit children, they just produce them and send them to earth to inhabit human bodies.
But that isn’t what I was asking Jane Doe. She said that thier plurality of gods is one God in the same way a husband and wife are one. So…according to this revised view, their goddess should be a part of the godhead. This view comes out of nowhere, really. Not rooted at all in the original teachings of plural marriage.
G
gazelam
Guest
Couldn’t a Catholic say that Mary is a “God enabler”? I don’t hear Catholics lamenting that Mary was nothing more than the mother of Jesus.
Stephen168
New member
A Christian would say she is the “Mother of God.” A phrase removed from the Book of Mormon when Mormons became polytheists.
J
JMM1957
Guest
The biggest problem with the heavenly mother issue for Mormon’s, is that nowhere in the Bible, OT or NT, is there any indication that she exists in the heaven’s with God the Father, bringing forth spirit children. Jesus talks continuously about the Father, but never a heavenly mother, wouldn’t that seem odd to His listeners, and never did it occur to them to ask the question of Jesus about it.I have researched the LDS website itself, and have only found mention of the Heavenly Mother with no details whatsoever about her (maybe I didn’t look in the right place), how she came to be, what she looks like, etc. Also, no mention of how the Heavenly Mother and Father produce the spirit children, they just produce them and send them to earth to inhabit human bodies.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
That would be you projecting Mormonism onto Catholic teaching.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Mormons have written on Asherah being the wife of their god.The biggest problem with the heavenly mother issue for Mormon’s, is that nowhere in the Bible, OT or NT, is there any indication that she exists in the heaven’s with God the Father, bringing forth spirit children. Jesus talks continuously about the Father, but never a heavenly mother, wouldn’t that seem odd to His listeners, and never did it occur to them to ask the question of Jesus about it.
ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/JBMRS/article/view/19903
J
JMM1957
Guest
hmmm…
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
I’m not sure what the point of the above post is. It describes metaphor, which we already know. It doesn’t attempt to make any argument. The poster seems to be trying to ignore the real argument, to draw attention away from it.
Of course, it’s right about metaphors not being literal, although the example “red as a rose” is not really a metaphor, being more properly called a simile.
But “God is spirit” is not metaphor. Nor would be “God is flesh.”
Now, though, if God is not spirit, nor flesh, nor photon, nor emotion, what is he?
G
gazelam
Guest
LDS scholar Truman Madsen interviewed David Noel Freedman on various doctrinal topics of interest to Latter-day Saints. The interview can be watched in this DVD: deseretbook.com/p/ultimate-questions-truman-g-madsen-93522?variant_id=1980-dvdThe biggest problem with the heavenly mother issue for Mormon’s, is that nowhere in the Bible, OT or NT, is there any indication that she exists in the heaven’s with God the Father, bringing forth spirit children. Jesus talks continuously about the Father, but never a heavenly mother, wouldn’t that seem odd to His listeners, and never did it occur to them to ask the question of Jesus about it.
Freedman is one of the world’s foremost Bible scholars and a renowned Hebrew scholar. He was editor of the Anchor Bible Series: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_Bible_Series
At the 17:45 point of the interview the discussion is as follows:
Madsen: *An even more touchy question has to do with is there a match or is there an archetypal figure along side of the Deity who can be called female?
*
Freedman: For me that’s no longer, not really a question anymore because we not only have substantial evidence from the Bible, but also from archeological research and it is ultimately resolved in the figure of Lady Wisdom.
Madsen: “Chochmah” in Hebrew…
Freedman: “Chochmah” in Hebrew who is described in considerable detail in the book of Proverbs, especially chapter 8, but not only there, elsewhere, indicating that she is the one who accompanies the Deity and is the instrument,* the one who actually carries out the successive acts of creation.***
Madsen: She’s a person.
Freedman: Oh yeah, very much so. And she’s more or less orthodox…
Madsen: Meaning that…
Freedman: *The Bible supports this…
*
Freedman then for a couple of minutes discusses three instances of idolatrous female worship in ancient Israel.
Jumping to minute 24:28….
Madsen: So to sum up, though there are these three Canaanite deities, all women, you’re saying that’s idolatry, but the fact that it was part of the culture may reflect that Chochmah which is genuinely part of the Torah, Chochmah Wisdom, does get us into understanding that there can be even in the legitimate reading of Israelite religion a faith that includes both a male God and a female.
Freedman: Yes. And the way you define it, in other words, orthodox religion, even Biblical religion would not say she’s a goddess, but rather she’s a female figure associated very closely with a deity, with God, and in a way that’s closer, more intimate than angels. She’s not an angel.
J
Jesus_123
Guest
MORMON HERESY_______________________
Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210
- Teaches that there are many gods, and that humans can become gods and goddesses in the Heavenly kingdom: “History of the Church” 6 p. 306; “Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” pp. 28, 51-53.
- Teaches that God the Father was a man like us who progressed to become a god and presently has a body of flesh and bone. “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!”—“Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. 345-47.
- Teaches that Jesus is our elder brother who progressed to godhood, after being procreated in spirit by the Father and a heavenly mother, and conceived physically by the Father and an earthly mother. “The Restoration of Major Doctrines Through Joseph Smith.” in, “The Ensign,” Jan 1989, pp. 28-29. They hold that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers—“Mormon Doctrine,” pp. 192, 546-47, 589-90.
- The Holy Spirit is a spirit in the form of a man and only his influence is present everywhere.—“Doctrines of Salvation” I. pp. 38, 49-50 by Joseph Fielding Smith.
- The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods—“Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” p. 370.
- The :bible1: Bible is corrupt, missing many “plain and precious parts” and does not contain the fullness of the Gospel—“Doctrines of Salvation” III. pp. 190, 191.
- Information from the National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution. “The American Indians are physically Mongoloids and thus must have originated in eastern Asia.”—Cf. J. B. Billard, editor, “The World of the American Indian,” Washington, DC, National Geographic Society, 1974, 1979. See esp. the chapter “Across an Arctic Bridge” by J. D. Jennings.
Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210
- Status