Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

[JMM1957]

LDS scholar Truman Madsen interviewed David Noel Freedman on various doctrinal topics of interest to Latter-day Saints. The interview can be watched in this DVD: deseretbook.com/p/ultimate-questions-truman-g-madsen-93522?variant_id=1980-dvd

Freedman is one of the world’s foremost Bible scholars and a renowned Hebrew scholar. He was editor of the Anchor Bible Series: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_Bible_Series

At the 17:45 point of the interview the discussion is as follows:

Madsen: *An even more touchy question has to do with is there a match or is there an archetypal figure along side of the Deity who can be called female?
*
Freedman: For me that’s no longer, not really a question anymore because we not only have substantial evidence from the Bible, but also from archeological research and it is ultimately resolved in the figure of Lady Wisdom.

Madsen: “Chochmah” in Hebrew…

Freedman: “Chochmah” in Hebrew who is described in considerable detail in the book of Proverbs, especially chapter 8, but not only there, elsewhere, indicating that she is the one who accompanies the Deity and is the instrument,* the one who actually carries out the successive acts of creation.***

Madsen: She’s a person.

Freedman: Oh yeah, very much so. And she’s more or less orthodox…

Madsen: Meaning that…

Freedman: *The Bible supports this…
*
Freedman then for a couple of minutes discusses three instances of idolatrous female worship in ancient Israel.

Jumping to minute 24:28….

Madsen: So to sum up, though there are these three Canaanite deities, all women, you’re saying that’s idolatry, but the fact that it was part of the culture may reflect that Chochmah which is genuinely part of the Torah, Chochmah Wisdom, does get us into understanding that there can be even in the legitimate reading of Israelite religion a faith that includes both a male God and a female.

Freedman: Yes. And the way you define it, in other words, orthodox religion, even Biblical religion would not say shes a goddess, but rather she’s a female figure associated very closely with a deity, with God, and in a way that’s closer, more intimate than angels. She’s not an angel.

Do you think Freedman believed in the role of a heavenly mother as LDS understand it? Freedman converted from Judaism to being a Presbyterian, neither of those believe in a heavenly mother figure alongside God the Father.

Secondly, in many languages (including Hebrew) most nouns have a strong gender component, but the gender assignment is grammatical and does not necessarily indicate the physical gender of the object. In Spanish, a guitar (la guitarra) is feminine, and a car (el coche) is masculine. This has nothing to do with literal gender. In fact, the Spanish word masculinidad, which means “masculinity,” is a feminine noun! Therefore, when translating from Hebrew into English, we must distinguish grammatical gender from our notions of sexual gender.

In English, the word wisdom is grammatically neuter, but not so in Hebrew. The Hebrew word is chokmoth, and it is grammatically feminine. In Hebrew, it would have been natural to speak of wisdom as a “she.”

I could go on in more detail with showing how you are incorrect about this, but I really don’t think it would be worth my time doing so. In order for LDS to explain this doctrine (the heavenly mother) to non-LDS people, they know they have to try to find proof in the Bible. This is similar to LDS proving from the Bible that God the Father in heaven is human with flesh and bone, they must use examples of common OT anthropomophism’s to do so, taking literally what should not be taken literally. The same with the “she” alongside God the Father in OT Proverb examples.

 

[JMM1957]

MORMON HERESY_______________________

1. Teaches that there are many gods, and that humans can become gods and goddesses in the Heavenly kingdom: “History of the Church” 6 p. 306; “Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” pp. 28, 51-53.
2. Teaches that God the Father was a man like us who progressed to become a god and presently has a body of flesh and bone. “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!”—“Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. 345-47.
3. Teaches that Jesus is our elder brother who progressed to godhood, after being procreated in spirit by the Father and a heavenly mother, and conceived physically by the Father and an earthly mother. “The Restoration of Major Doctrines Through Joseph Smith.” in, “The Ensign,” Jan 1989, pp. 28-29. They hold that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers—“Mormon Doctrine,” pp. 192, 546-47, 589-90.
4. The Holy Spirit is a spirit in the form of a man and only his influence is present everywhere.—“Doctrines of Salvation” I. pp. 38, 49-50 by Joseph Fielding Smith.
5. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods—“Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” p. 370.
6. The :bible1: Bible is corrupt, missing many “plain and precious parts” and does not contain the fullness of the Gospel—“Doctrines of Salvation” III. pp. 190, 191.
7. Information from the National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution. “The American Indians are physically Mongoloids and thus must have originated in eastern Asia.”—Cf. J. B. Billard, editor, “The World of the American Indian,” Washington, DC, National Geographic Society, 1974, 1979. See esp. the chapter “Across an Arctic Bridge” by J. D. Jennings.

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​

All true. LDS must say the Bible is corrupted in certain parts in order for them to introduce the lost truth contained in the Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price. When some group claims the Bible became corrupted after the 1st century, that opens the door for them to teach everything and anything they want basically.

 

[gazelam]

Do you think Freedman believed in the role of a heavenly mother as LDS understand it? Freedman converted from Judaism to being a Presbyterian, neither of those believe in a heavenly mother figure alongside God the Father.

LDS really only know two things about Heavenly Mother. The first is that She exists and the secod is that we are all spiritual offspring of Her and of God the Father. That’s pretty much it. Does Freedman believe this? Perhaps not. But he clearly stated there is a divine feminine person who actually carries out the successive acts of creation and this position is Biblical. I think the real question is whether Freedman is closer to the LDS position or the Orthodox Christian position. That’s why the topic was broached in the interview.

Secondly, in many languages (including Hebrew) most nouns have a strong gender component, but the gender assignment is grammatical and does not necessarily indicate the physical gender of the object. In Spanish, a guitar (la guitarra) is feminine, and a car (el coche) is masculine. This has nothing to do with literal gender. In fact, the Spanish word masculinidad, which means “masculinity,” is a feminine noun! Therefore, when translating from Hebrew into English, we must distinguish grammatical gender from our notions of sexual gender.

I appreciate the explanation of noun gender in foreign languages. I served an LDS mission in a Spanish speaking country and have a minor in Spanish, but you would have no way of knowing that.

In English, the word wisdom is grammatically neuter, but not so in Hebrew. The Hebrew word is chokmoth, and it is grammatically feminine. In Hebrew, it would have been natural to speak of wisdom as a “she.”

I could go on in more detail with showing how you are incorrect about this, but I really don’t think it would be worth my time doing so.

Actually you need to show that Freedman is incorrect. I only shared his compelling case.

 

[jane_doe]

All true. LDS must say the Bible is corrupted in certain parts in order for them to introduce the lost truth contained in the Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price. When some group claims the Bible became corrupted after the 1st century, that opens the door for them to teach everything and anything they want basically.

Actually the unoriginal post is full of spun “truths”. This statement here is also inaccurate about LDS beliefs.

 

[JMM1957]

LDS really only know two things about Heavenly Mother. The first is that She exists and the second is that we are all spiritual offspring of Her and of God the Father. That’s pretty much it. Does Freedman believe this? Perhaps not. But he clearly stated there is a divine feminine person who actually carries out the successive acts of creation and this position is Biblical.

She exists based on what scripture? I am pretty sure Freedman doesn’t believe as LDS do about it, and furthermore, even if by chance he was suggesting the possibility of a feminine person alongside the Father, I don’t have to accept it. He may be a scholar, but many of them have been wrong in the past just like anyone else. In other words, he put on his pants in the morning the same way I do, one leg at a time.

 

[JMM1957]

Actually the unoriginal post is full of spun “truths”. This statement here is also inaccurate about LDS beliefs.

I’m willing to accept correction if I misstated LDS beliefs.

 

[jane_doe]

I’m willing to accept correction if I misstated LDS beliefs.

Sure.

JMM1957: LDS must say the Bible is corrupted in certain parts in order for them to introduce the lost truth contained in the Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price.
Jane: This is simply false. The fact that an unchanging God does not cease to give revelation is not because of any corruption of the Bible, rather God continues to give revelation because He is unchanging.

JMM1957: that opens the door for them to teach everything and anything they want basically.
Jane: Again, this statement is simply false. LDS do not “teach everything and anything they want”. Rather teachings are from God and are part of His Truth.

 

[JMM1957]

Hi jane,

I would like your response on post #585 please.

 

[gazelam]

I fellow copier and paster of apologetic material… I like it!

MORMON HERESY_______________________

1. Teaches that there are many gods, and that humans can become gods and goddesses in the Heavenly kingdom: “History of the Church” 6 p. 306; “Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” pp. 28, 51-53.

CCC 460 …The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.

Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

1. Teaches that God the Father was a man like us who progressed to become a god and presently has a body of flesh and bone. “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!”—“Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, pp. 345-47.

Matthew 12:40 Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

Why is Jesus referring to himself as “Son of Man” if His Father is not or was not a man at one time?

John 10:18 Jesus answered him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

In this verse “no one” could also be “no man or woman”, so it could say (and other translations do say) “no man is good but God”.

FONT=“Arial Black”]3. Teaches that Jesus is our elder brother who progressed to godhood, after being procreated in spirit by the Father and a heavenly mother, and conceived physically by the Father and an earthly mother. “The Restoration of Major Doctrines Through Joseph Smith.” in, “The Ensign,” Jan 1989, pp. 28-29. They hold that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers—“Mormon Doctrine,” pp. 192, 546-47, 589-90.

About Jesus being our elder brother…

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the* firstborn of all creation**.*

Jesus is clearly spiritually older than the rest of us. (He definitely wasn’t firstborn in body.)

On Jesus progressing to full Godhood…

Again Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

Jesus is an heir of the Father, i.e., receiving something He didn’t have at an earlier time.

Well, let’s see about that Jesus and Lucifer being brothers business…

Job 1:6 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, the satan also came among them.

Job 2:1 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, the satan also came with them.

So, we have two votes that Satan is a son of God. Do I really need to justify that Jesus is the Son of God? Hopefully that’s a given. So, Jesus is the son of God and Lucifer is a son of God. Wouldn’t that make them brothers?

I addressed Heavenly Mother in post #599.

I’m not sure what to make of the “conceived physically” portion of this statement. It’s sufficient to say that LDS believe that Mary was a virgin before and after Jesus’ birth.

1. The Holy Spirit is a spirit in the form of a man and only his influence is present everywhere.—“Doctrines of Salvation” I. pp. 38, 49-50 by Joseph Fielding Smith.

John 16:13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

1. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods—“Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” p. 370.

John 17:21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me

From this verse the father, Son, and Holy Spirit one clearly one in purpose only. The disciples referred to cannot become consubstantial with each other so therefore the Father and Son are not consubstantial with each other either.

1. The :bible1: Bible is corrupt, missing many “plain and precious parts” and does not contain the fullness of the Gospel—“Doctrines of Salvation” III. pp. 190, 191.

Of course, Catholics in a similar manner believe some doctrine is found in Sacred Tradition, not the Bible.​

 

[jane_doe]

Hi jane,

I would like your response on post #585 please.

Wow, that was pages ago (thread got busy for a while)

Originally Posted by JMM1957
I think the preponderance of evidence from those verses, and many others I could supply if needed, indicates that God the Father was understood to be a Spirit by the authors of the NT.

jane doe responded:
But only one verse even quasi addressed the topic, and does not say “God is a Spirit”.

I just found something on another thread where you said most LDS use the KJV of the Bible, and in that version, John 4:24 is translated “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

Comment?

You can look of the dispute of that translation as well as I.
Meanwhile, I will patiently continue my wait for you to present a “preponderance of evidence” from other verses, and a logical explanation from scripture of why this verse should be taken as a literal statement of God’s metaphysical nature while all other similar statements are taken as metaphor.

 

[JMM1957]

Sure.

JMM1957: LDS must say the Bible is corrupted in certain parts in order for them to introduce the lost truth contained in the Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price.

Jane: This is simply false.
The fact that an unchanging God does not cease to give revelation is not because of any corruption of the Bible, rather God continues to give revelation because He is unchanging.

Even if you as LDS believe in continuous revelation by God, how do you account for the lack of revelation between early 2nd century (approx.) and Joseph Smith then?

 

[SyroMalankara]

From this verse the father, Son, and Holy Spirit one clearly one in purpose only. The disciples referred to cannot become consubstantial with each other so therefore the Father and Son are not consubstantial with each other either.

Why, according to you, are the disciples not consubstantial in their human nature, with each other again?

 

[jane_doe]

Even if you as LDS believe in continuous revelation by God, how do you account for the lack of revelation between early 2nd century (approx.) and Joseph Smith then?

God’s always willing to give revelation and always does, to people with ears to hear. Believing that revelation stops have a tendency to shut one’s ears.

 

[SyroMalankara]

God’s always willing to give revelation and always does, to people with ears to hear. Believing that revelation stops have a tendency to shut one’s ears.

How do you know what you are hearing is the truth vs. error, if your revelation and what is publicly revealed contradict?

 

[jane_doe]

How do you know what you are hearing is the truth vs. error, if your revelation and what is publicly revealed contradict?

You are a Christian. Do you not know how to listen and discern when God is speaking and what is of Him? That is key.

 

[SyroMalankara]

You are a Christian. Do you not know how to listen and discern when God is speaking and what is of Him? That is key.

Yeah, I do, God speaks through His mouth, a part of His Body on earth, the Church.

But you disagree with the words that are coming out of the Body of Christ on earth.

My discernment and listening reveals to me that Joseph Smith is a false prophet and his teachings deceive the faithful. How do you refute that discernment?

 

[JMM1957]

Wow, that was pages ago (thread got busy for a while)

You can look of the dispute of that translation as well as I.
Meanwhile, I will patiently continue my wait for you to present a “preponderance of evidence” from other verses, and a logical explanation from scripture of why this verse should be taken as a literal statement of God’s metaphysical nature while all other similar statements are taken as metaphor.

Not so fast jane, Firstly, there are always supporters and opponents of every Bible translation that has come along in history, that’s why new translations keep appearing every so often. The fact is, the KJV was held in high esteem for its accuracy of meaning for many, many years, and still is considered to be one of the best translations into the English language ever done. So, I don’t know if you are referring to the translation as a whole being disputed, or for that one particular verse in question? All I know is, LDS in general like the KJV from what I gather, maybe you don’t, I don’t know.

Secondly, you asked for me to produce a verse which says “God is a Spirit”, so now I have done that, but now you don’t think the KJV translated the verse properly. Just so you know, it matters not to me whether a particular bible translation says “God is Spirit”, or “God is a Spirit”, it means one and the same thing. This issue reminds me of the JW’s and their translation of John 1:1, “And the Word was a god” instead of what it really is, “The Word was God.” This shows the importance to get the translation done correctly as to what the original authors meant, or it can get messy real fast.

 

[JMM1957]

God’s always willing to give revelation and always does, to people with ears to hear. Believing that revelation stops have a tendency to shut one’s ears.

I don’t think I’m quite satisfied yet with your answer here. You imply that nobody wanted to hear from God for 1800 yrs.?

 

[JMM1957]

I fellow copier and paster of apologetic material… I like it!

CCC 460 …The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.

Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

Matthew 12:40 Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

Why is Jesus referring to himself as “Son of Man” if His Father is not or was not a man at one time?

John 10:18 Jesus answered him, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

In this verse “no one” could also be “no man or woman”, so it could say (and other translations do say) “no man is good but God”.

About Jesus being our elder brother…

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the* firstborn of all creation***.

Jesus is clearly spiritually older than the rest of us. (He definitely wasn’t firstborn in body.)

On Jesus progressing to full Godhood…

Again Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

Jesus is an heir of the Father, i.e., receiving something He didn’t have at an earlier time.

Well, let’s see about that Jesus and Lucifer being brothers business…

Job 1:6 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, the satan also came among them.

Job 2:1 One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, the satan also came with them.

So, we have two votes that Satan is a son of God. Do I really need to justify that Jesus is the Son of God? Hopefully that’s a given. So, Jesus is the son of God and Lucifer is a son of God. Wouldn’t that make them brothers?

I addressed Heavenly Mother in post #599.

I’m not sure what to make of the “conceived physically” portion of this statement. It’s sufficient to say that LDS believe that Mary was a virgin before and after Jesus’ birth.

John 16:13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

John 17:21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me

From this verse the father, Son, and Holy Spirit one clearly one in purpose only. The disciples referred to cannot become consubstantial with each other so therefore the Father and Son are not consubstantial with each other either.

Of course, Catholics in a similar manner believe some doctrine is found in Sacred Tradition, not the Bible.

I will try to answer these statements, but it will require me to devote a good amount of time to it, which is lacking for me right now, but I will get to it as I can.

 

[jane_doe]

you asked for me to produce a verse which says “God is a Spirit”, so now I have done that,

Yes you did. We shall temporarily ignore that your church rejects the KJV…

Now please:

1. Provide scriptural case for why this verse shall be taken as a literal statement when you choose to take all other similar as metaphorical.
2. Provide other verses witnessing say the same thing.