Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

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gazelam said:
The LDS Church accepts fully the New Testament (as far as the translation is correct.) Don’t Protestants also reject “Sacred Tradition” in favor of “sola scriptura”? Don’t Catholics also rely on sources like the Old Testament that are outside the New Testament and “Sacred Tradition”? Where are the 10 commandments found? I respectfully disagree that the Book of Mormon is a creation of man.
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Who determines the correct translation, and what hermeneutic do they use to read it? On what grounds do Joseph Smith’s prophetic claims deserve to be given preference to those of Muhammed or Ellen G. White? If a great apostasy necessitated the restoration of the Church in these latter days, how do we know who to believe?

The 10 Commandments are a summary of the universal Moral Law, accessible to reason and thus not limited to the pages of the Bible.
 
Michael68 said:
I hear this from Protestants a lot and I’m wondering exactly where in the Bible that requirement is made.
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“If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved.”

This is likely what the reference is too. It’s a Bible verse.
 
josephback said:
“If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved.”

This is likely what the reference is too. It’s a Bible verse.
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This is also a verse (in the Bible):

*“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.*On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’*And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Make no mistake, however, I am not judging anyone’s works and obedience. What the church must do, is confirm us in the Way. Baptism is an initiation into the saving grace of Jesus. The Catholic Church, unless I am terribly mistaken, has judged the Baptism of the LDS Group to be lacking in its proper understanding and profession. If I was a child of the LDS community, I would seek the answer to this. I would follow the Lord to a valid Baptism.

Do some of these members have a proper desire for Baptism, but through no fault of their own, are unaware of the proper understanding of who the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are? I believe so.
 
They are Christian because they believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible. They do reject the Trinity though.
 
jane_doe said:
🤷 It’s just a useful metaphor. (I have a two year old, we count things ALL day long).
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Forgive me, I’m trying to learn what the Church finds wrong with the LDS understanding/teaching of the Trinity.

If you invite Jesus for dinner, the Father and Holy Spirit are fully present.

For in him (Christ) the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,*and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
 
rcwitness said:
Forgive me, I’m trying to learn what the Church finds wrong with the LDS understanding/teaching of the Trinity.

If you invite Jesus for dinner, the Father and Holy Spirit are fully present.

For in him (Christ) the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,*and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
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But how many metaphoric chairs do you need, in the Catholic view? ** Are the Father/Son/Spirit the same being in some way**? In my experience, the official Catholic answer to this is some form of yes, usually do to a shared substance. (Though I’ve had wide variety of answers from various individual Catholics).

The LDS view the answer is a simple “No”.

It is for that reason that LDS are declared to have a improper view of the Trinity by the Catholic church, and thus have an invalid baptism, despite literally baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit/Ghost; and believing that their one God.
 
jane_doe said:
But how many metaphoric chairs do you need, in the Catholic view? ** Are the Father/Son/Spirit the same being in some way**? In my experience, the official Catholic answer to this is some form of yes, usually do to a shared substance. (Though I’ve had wide variety of answers from various individual Catholics).

The LDS view the answer is a simple “No”.

It is for that reason that LDS are declared to have a improper view of the Trinity by the Catholic church, and thus have an invalid baptism, despite literally baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit/Ghost; and believing that their one God.
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I believe “consubstantial” is the simple Catholic answer. 😉

Thanks for your posts!
 
jane_doe said:
But how many metaphoric chairs do you need, in the Catholic view? ** Are the Father/Son/Spirit the same being in some way**? In my experience, the official Catholic answer to this is some form of yes, usually do to a shared substance. (Though I’ve had wide variety of answers from various individual Catholics).

The LDS view the answer is a simple “No”.

It is for that reason that LDS are declared to have a improper view of the Trinity by the Catholic church, and thus have an invalid baptism, despite literally baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit/Ghost; and believing that their one God.
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Mormons are baptizing in the name of a different Father, Son and Holy Spirit; a Trinity that is different from all other Christian denominations, including Protestant and Orthodox. This is where the problems begin.

The early Christians were always fighting against heresy in an effort to retain what Jesus and the Apostles taught. Mormons are changing what was taught from the very beginning so that makes Mormons not Christian. The first Christians exemplified what a Christian was and still is - who are we to redefine it?
 
I feel like in a scholarly standpoint, they definitely are placed in the umbrella of Christianity. Another newer religion, the Baha’i Faith is viewed as a completely separate religion because it seems to conform to unity of all of the world religions ( believes abrahamic prophets, such as Moses, Jesus, Muhammad are also prophets with Zoroaster, Krishna and Buddah from eastern religions). I think all world religions have sects which the “traditional” understanding of the religion views as heretical. For instance the Ahmidiyyah Muslim community is regarded as heretical to most mainstream Muslims. The Hare Krishna movement is viewed as heretical to most mainstream Hindus.
 
jas84173 said:
I feel like in a scholarly standpoint, they definitely are placed in the umbrella of Christianity. Another newer religion, the Baha’i Faith is viewed as a completely separate religion because it seems to conform to unity of all of the world religions ( believes abrahamic prophets, such as Moses, Jesus, Muhammad are also prophets with Zoroaster, Krishna and Buddah from eastern religions). I think all world religions have sects which the “traditional” understanding of the religion views as heretical. For instance the Ahmidiyyah Muslim community is regarded as heretical to most mainstream Muslims. The Hare Krishna movement is viewed as heretical to most mainstream Hindus.
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From what scholarly viewpoint is Mormonism under the umbrella of Christianity?
 
My opinion may not be worth much because I’m not a christian, but I will answer anyway. No, I don’t consider them to be christians. They aren’t monotheists and their Jesuses are different from the Biblical Jesus. You would never come to the belief that Jesus is Michael or that Jesus is one of many Gods through a plain reading of the Bible.
 
anon67074017 said:
They are Christian because they believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible. They do reject the Trinity though.
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I think it’s more important to say they are Christian because they believe in Jesus Christ and they CALL themselves Christian. How they hammer out their theology is up to them.
 
RebeccaJ said:
ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm
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Thanks for the link. According to the investigation of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, there are significant differences in the profession and understanding of who God is (and His Revelation through the Church) for the Church of Latter Day Saints to be considered even a branch of Christianity. Therefore, they do not practice a valid Christian Baptism. And furthermore, the LDS church denies the validity of all Catholic Sacraments.

In light of this, I find that it is not my judgment or any other Catholic, but the judgment of the Catholic Church. It is not, then, a matter for us to conclude our own judgments and opinions, but to assent to the Supreme ruling of the Catholic Church.
 
I’m only familiar with the JW so will stick to that for now.

I try to look at it from the Apostles point of view. If the Apostles believed that Jesus is God, and worshiped him as God, do you think that they would consider any JW who refuses to worship Jesus as God as a fellow Christian? Wouldn’t that be THE core belief of Christianity? On the other hand, if the Apostles believed that Jesus was not God do you think that they would welcome Catholics as fellow Christians? Wouldn’t that mean that anyone who worshiped Jesus as God was actually worshipping a false God? They would be considered followers of anti-Christ, but certainly not “Christian”.

These two views are complete opposites of each other and therefore one of them cannot be considered “Christian”. The most basic definition of Christian is to be a follower of Jesus Christ. However, how can one truly be considered a follower of Jesus if they do not know who he is? When they “confess him as Lord” (Romans 10:9), who are they professing him to be? How can complete opposite beliefs both be considered “Christian”? One is Christian the other is anti-Christian.

Even with the simplest definition of Christian, the greatest commandment that Jesus taught was “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind” (Matt 22:37-38). In order to follow this greatest teaching of Jesus is either to worship Jesus as God (Catholic & Protestant) or not to worship Jesus as God (Jehovah Witness). Either Catholics and Protestants or the Jehovah’s Witness are not followers of Christ in how they follow this commandment by their doctrine. By the doctrine of who Jesus is determines whether they are true followers of Christ (Christian), or not followers of Christ (not Christian). Both doctrines cannot even loosely be considered as following Christ at the same time. One is Christian and the other is necessarily anti-Christian.
Originally Posted by jane_doe
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LDS view: they are 3 beings. 100% united in righteousness, perfection, purpose, divinity, etc. and because of that are ONE God. But if you wanted to invite them all to dinner, you would need 3 chairs.
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I ask this out of ignorance of the LDS view. Was Jesus a man who later became God? Did he exist prior to being a man? I’m looking for a better understanding of who Jesus is throughout time/eternity according to the LDS view.
 
rcwitness said:
And furthermore, the LDS church denies the validity of all Catholic Sacraments.
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Is this a disqualifor to be considered “Christian” by the Catholic church?

Many Evangelical churches consider a Catholic baptism to be invalid (because it was not a believer’s baptism) and rest of the sacraments to be unnecessary or even stumbling blocks. (I do not endorse these views). But I have never heard of the Catholic church calling these churches non-Christian.

(I’m asking this honestly)
 
spiderweb said:
Was Jesus a man who later became God?
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No.
spiderweb said:
Did he exist prior to being a man?
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Yes. He was the creator of the world, and Jehovah of the Old Testament.
spiderweb said:
I’m looking for a better understanding of who Jesus is throughout time/eternity according to the LDS view.
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All good, I’m always game for honest questions. Understanding another faith can be challenging-- I’ve asked +1000 Catholic questions myself.
 
jane_doe said:
Is this a disqualifor to be considered “Christian” by the Catholic church?

Many Evangelical churches consider a Catholic baptism to be invalid (because it was not a believer’s baptism) and rest of the sacraments to be unnecessary or even stumbling blocks. (I do not endorse these views). But I have never heard of the Catholic church calling these churches non-Christian.

(I’m asking this honestly)
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I have to give my personal understanding for this question. I believe the LDS Church is NOT a Christian Church. It’s individual members may be in a state of Invincible Ignorance and posses a Desire for Baptism, however.

But the Church and it’s fundamental teachings have not sprung from the Universal Church of God, but outside. It remains outside unless it assents to the proper profession and practice of Christian Baptism.

It’s not what Evangelical churches reject that puts them into the Christian faith and Baptism, but what they accept and receive.

PS: I am happy to answer and ask questions with you.
 
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