Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

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RebeccaJ said:
The creeds are a profession of the Christian faith. Sometimes Protestant churches will use the phrase confession of faith rather than profession of faith. What we profess/confess is a a sign, and a symbol, that the beliefs one holds are that of the universal, apostolic faith. An unwillingness to profess a belief in the universal, apostolic, faith is a sign and a symbol that one does not hold to the Christian faith.

An prospective adult convert who cannot in good conscience profess the Christian faith, should not be baptized, Similarly, a convert to Mormonism must meet with a Bishop and profess their faith in the Mormon Church. Do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God? …and other questions. One who in good conscience cannot profess the Mormon faith, should not be baptized. Right?

FYI, The word creed comes from Latin, credo, which means “I believe”, which are the first two words of one’s profession/confession of faith.

Credo in unum Deo.
I believe in one God.
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Saying the creed at Mass is like an LDS member bearing their testimony on Fast Sunday.
 
zaffiroborant said:
Saying the creed at Mass is like an LDS member bearing their testimony on Fast Sunday.
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It would be more efficient for a whole Mormon congregation to stand together and say together, “I know this church is true and I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.”
 
RebeccaJ said:
Your post only proves the point that Mormons are not Christian.
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I couldn’t even finish reading the link. My question is if the LDS is, as claimed, a restoration of the church founded by Christ, and all of us non-LDS folks belong to a flawed religion that lost it’s way however long ago they claim the great apostasy happened, then why do the care about being called Christian? I mean if all of the Christian faith, Catholic or Protestant are false, why do they want to be associated with Christianity?

To be Christian is to accept what the Christian faith teaches and it appears the LDS don’t want to accept what we teach as truth. Then why do they want to be called Christian?
 
Horton said:
I couldn’t even finish reading the link. My question is if the LDS is, as claimed, a restoration of the church founded by Christ, and all of us non-LDS folks belong to a flawed religion that lost it’s way however long ago they claim the great apostasy happened, then why do the care about being called Christian? I mean if all of the Christian faith, Catholic or Protestant are false, why do they want to be associated with Christianity?

To be Christian is to accept what the Christian faith teaches and it appears the LDS don’t want to accept what we teach as truth. Then why do they want to be called Christian?
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The same reason (I’m assuming) it bothers you when Protestants call Catholics “non-Christian”.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
The Church says no, so that’s the final authority.

Doctrinally speaking, those two groups are much worse off than protestants because they don’t rely on the New Testament or sacred Tradition, they rely on sources outside of it for their rule of faith. The Watchtower and Book of Mormon are modern day creations of men. (although LDS folks would like you to believe otherwise)

Some of them may get offended if you don’t address them as Christians…and that is unfortunate and I don’t mean to offend, but things are what they are. I cant go down to the Social security office and tell them i identify as a 62 year old man and want to claim my benefits now. They are going to look at me and laugh, lol.😛
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I’m not terribly familiar with Jehovah’s Witnesses, but they are non Trinitarian, to add to this, which is an essential aspect of Christianity. I’m not sure if they believe in the divinity of Christ.

Mormon theology departs radically from Christianity and actually has some odd similarities with Islam early on, although that may be purely accidental. While Mormons would of course disagree, it seems fairly well established that Joseph Smith took bits and pieces of things that were in current circulation at the time he created the religion and added to that, with the end result being a religion that is polytheistic, believes that humans can became true Gods, that Christ and Lucifer are brothers, etc. It’s pretty far from Christianity, therefore. It acknowledges the existence of Christ (and it might acknowledge that he has a divine status of some sort, I’m fuzzy on that) but mere acknowledgement of the existence of Christ isn’t the same as acknowledging the essential elements of Christianity.
 
jane_doe said:
The same reason (I’m assuming) it bothers you when Protestants call Catholics “non-Christian”.
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Yes, I agree. I don’t understand Horton’s logic. You believe you are Christian, and you want to be Christian. You should consider Christian a title to be known as, if you are in fact following Christ.

What I would hope to influence you to do, is to submit to the Christian Church which has been established from Christ. So this means discussing your concerns, like you seem eager to do.

I don’t like to use big authority or condescending attitude. You desire to follow Jesus. This I commend and encourage! Who Jesus is and what is the truth about His relation to the Father and Holy Spirit are obvious barriers between you and us. One of us is correct, while the other is mistaken.
 
rcwitness said:
Yes, I agree. I don’t understand Horton’s logic. You believe you are Christian, and you want to be Christian. You should consider Christian a title to be known as, if you are in fact following Christ.
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👍
 
rcwitness said:
I don’t like to use big authority or condescending attitude. You desire to follow Jesus. This I commend and encourage! Who Jesus is and what is the truth about His relation to the Father and Holy Spirit are obvious barriers between you and us. One of us is correct, while the other is mistaken.
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And for me this is always the line between Luke 9:50 “Do not stop him, for whoever is not against you is for you.” and Galatians 1:6 “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel”

When do you cross that barrier? I tend to lean more towards the Luke side and think there is too much debate (and the occasional hostility sickens me). Now as I Catholic I believe that Christ intended ONE Church but its beyond my comprehension as to when one crosses over into Gal 1:6 territory.
 
jane_doe said:
I would imagine (but don’t know for sure) that Catholics similarly acknowledge some churches as being on track in when a church acknowledges that marriage should be between a man & women,…
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Actually, between a man and a woman… 😉
 
ajcstr said:
And for me this is always the line between Luke 9:50 “Do not stop him, for whoever is not against you is for you.” and Galatians 1:6 “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel”

When do you cross that barrier? I tend to lean more towards the Luke side and think there is too much debate. Now as I Catholic I believe that Christ intended ONE Church but its beyond my comprehension as to when one crosses over into Gal 1:6 territory.
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That’s why it is not for us to judge, but the Church who has made a judgement. She has considered the matter and determined there is a significant difference in who Mormons are calling the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and what She has Taught as Apostolic Revelation.
 
According to this website mormonbeliefs.org/mormon_beliefs/who-is-jesus-christ it states that ”Christ’s was the first spirit organized by the Father.” According to Mormon theology what does “organized” mean?

Correct me if I am wrong. It seems that the Mormon understanding is three separate and distinct Gods of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). They each have a separate but equal (ONE) Divine Nature so that they are equal in power, authority, perfection, etc.

Consider human beings. We are all equally human beings by our human nature. But we all have a separate but equal human nature to coincide with each separate but equal human person. Two people may love the same person equally, but those two people love that person separately with their own love. Even though their love is equal it is not “the same”. Two people may completely agree with their wills on any given thing so that it could be said that they are “one”, but it is not “the same” will. It is two separate wills that happen to agree. Again correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to be how the LDS view the Trinity. Three separate persons with three separate wills, loves, etc, that are “in agreement” so that they are ONE.

The Catholic view of the Trinity is three persons, who do not have separate but equal love, knowledge, will, etc. It is not three separate loves expressed equally, but only one love expressed through three persons. It is one will expressed through three persons. The Divine Nature is one love, one will, one perfection, one intellect, one Spirit, ONE God. The three persons are equal in all these things because they individually (not modally) possess entirely that same one love, will, perfection etc. according to their ONE Divine Nature (nature/substance/essence). There is never something that one person of the Trinity does that is separate from the other persons, because it is done with the one and the same will, power, authority, etc.

If I have expressed it correctly, from that standpoint these two views are not compatible with each other. To profess one God, is to deny three Gods and vice versa. The doctrine of the Trinity defines who God is as revealed by Christ.

Part of Jesus’ mission was to reveal God to mankind (Luke 10:22). One of these two views cannot be considered Christian by the doctrine of who God is. Christianity hinges on the most basic fundamental truths of who Jesus is and who God is. To get it wrong on either of these two points is to not be Christian even with the most basic definition of Christian. You must know God if you are a follower of Christ. One version of the Trinity knows God, the other version does not. One is Christian, the other necessarily is not.
Originally Posted by jane_doe (Post #16)
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Also note: LDS use the Bible’s definition of Christian, a disciple of Christ, and acknowledge both Catholics and Protestants as Christians. Obviously, there are differences in theology and all of the above are not in communion.
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I find it a little puzzling as to why the LDS would consider Catholics as Christians since it would seem to me from the LDS point of view that Catholics don’t know God. From my personal perspective, it would seem to me that knowing God and being a follower of Christ go hand in hand (Matt 11:27, Luke 10:22). Without the one, you don’t have the other. It is one thing to have an imperfect knowledge (which we all do), but it is another thing entirely to have a false knowledge.
 
spiderweb said:
I find it a little puzzling as to why the LDS would consider Catholics as Christians since it would seem to me from the LDS point of view that Catholics don’t know God. From my personal perspective, it would seem to me that knowing God and being a follower of Christ go hand in hand (Matt 11:27, Luke 10:22). Without the one, you don’t have the other. It is one thing to have an imperfect knowledge (which we all do), but it is another thing entirely to have a false knowledge.
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LDS view–
God does not judge us by our knowledge, but by our hearts. Yes, Catholics have a flawed understanding of God, but they devote themselves to Him with all of their hearts, mind, and soul, and that is something honorable and show to be acknowledged.
 
jane_doe said:
Yes. And don’t worry- there’s nothing remotely disrespectful about that question.
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Are you absolutely positive that is the official position of the LDS Church?

Do you have documents to support?
 
jane_doe said:
LDS view–
God does not judge us by our knowledge, but by our hearts. Yes, Catholics have a flawed understanding of God, but they devote themselves to Him with all of their hearts, mind, and soul, and that is something honorable and show to be acknowledged.
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Could you please explain the Catholic’s flawed understanding of God?
 
rcwitness said:
Yes, I agree. I don’t understand Horton’s logic. You believe you are Christian, and you want to be Christian. You should consider Christian a title to be known as, if you are in fact following Christ.

What I would hope to influence you to do, is to submit to the Christian Church which has been established from Christ. So this means discussing your concerns, like you seem eager to do.

I don’t like to use big authority or condescending attitude. You desire to follow Jesus. This I commend and encourage! Who Jesus is and what is the truth about His relation to the Father and Holy Spirit are obvious barriers between you and us. One of us is correct, while the other is mistaken.
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I commend your charity as you dialogue with our Mormon posters.

However, just as those who want to re-define marriage, we must keep in mind who it is exactly that gets to create the definition of something. In the early Church, many baptized people were teaching false doctrines and had to be corrected. They wanted to insert a new teaching that did not come from Jesus and the Apostles.

They were not allowed to re-define Christ, who he was and what he said. They may have loved him, believed in him and wanted to follow him, but they went against what had been handed down from the beginning.

(I know I am preaching to the choir here! 🙂 )

I have asked several questions of our Mormon poster that have been ignored, therefore I will pose them to you.

What is a Mormon? Can I call myself one even if I don’t believe 99.9% of what they believe and teach because I love and follow Jesus? Can I call myself a vegetarian even if I eat meat 99.9% of the time because I think not eating anything with a face is a great idea?

I hear the Mormons say that being Christian means to be a follower of Christ, but that is much too simplistic. It also means, and meant, willing to die for the very definition of what Jesus and the Apostles handed down to us from the very beginning. Not allowing heresy to enter the thoughts and teachings of its members.

Anyway, all of us, Mormons and Christians alike, can see where re-defining things has gotten us these days. It is worth defending the definition of something because otherwise everything is up for grabs. Marriage, Christianity, you name it, definitions matter.
 
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