Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

[ajcstr]

Can you or any Catholic define “consubstantiation” or more importantly the creedal word you say every Sunday "consubstantial? "
I personally believe LDS are on common ground (in common with most or all Catholics) when they do not know what to mean when saying "consubstantial. "

Charity, TOm

Little lengthy but…

cuf.org/2013/01/what-does-consubstantial-mean-and-why-is-it-in-our-creed/

What needs to be understood is that these definitions were attempts to reconcile one God when three separate persons are described as God in the NT.

 

[TOmNossor]

Its not a concept, its a reality. Your examples are not the same

Let me rephrase.

**Would it be correct to say that Obama, the husband of Michelle, and the President of the United States are consubstantial (one in being)?

Would it be correct to say that Jesus Christ who died on the cross and I are consubstantial (one in being)?

What would those mean relative to the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consubstantial?

I really think this Catholic teaching is quite murky. **

And what is not the same? How so? What are the answers to my questions?

I do not believe Catholics understand these things, but I am sure I cannot make sense of the language and concepts used by Catholics.
Charity, TOm

 

[Michael68]

Let me rephrase.

**Would it be correct to say that Obama, the husband of Michelle, and the President of the United States are consubstantial (one in being)?

Would it be correct to say that Jesus Christ who died on the cross and I are consubstantial (one in being)?

What would those mean relative to the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consubstantial?

I really think this Catholic teaching** is quite murky.

And what is not the same? How so? What are the answers to my questions?

I do not believe Catholics understand these things, but I am sure I cannot make sense of the language and concepts used by Catholics.
Charity, TOm

Goodmorning sir,
I hope I didn’t appear rude. I have an answer that took me a very long time to understand. Its a mystery. Plain and simple. I do not need to break it down the very core.

 

[ajcstr]

Let me rephrase.

**Would it be correct to say that Obama, the husband of Michelle, and the President of the United States are consubstantial (one in being)?

Would it be correct to say that Jesus Christ who died on the cross and I are consubstantial (one in being)?

What would those mean relative to the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consubstantial?

And what is not the same? How so? What are the answers to my questions?

I do not believe Catholics understand these things, but I am sure I cannot make sense of the language and concepts used by Catholics.
Charity, TOm**

I am not going to say that these terms are not confusing any more than trying to define “light” or “blue”

Not sure about the Obama’s but for the 2nd The Catholic response would be not consubstantial because one is worthy of worship the other is not, so they are not the same substance. I am thinking the Obama’s are not because when Barak is present you can’t say Michelle is present also.

Please see the link in my post above.

 

[JMM1957]

Let me rephrase.

**Would it be correct to say that Obama, the husband of Michelle, and the President of the United States are consubstantial (one in being)?

Would it be correct to say that Jesus Christ who died on the cross and I are consubstantial (one in being)?

What would those mean relative to the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consubstantial?

I really think this Catholic teaching** is quite murky.

And what is not the same? How so? What are the answers to my questions?

I do not believe Catholics understand these things, but I am sure I cannot make sense of the language and concepts used by Catholics.
Charity, TOm

And LDS understands completely how God created the whole universe from nothing? No mystery there?

 

[TOmNossor]

Little lengthy but…

cuf.org/2013/01/what-does-consubstantial-mean-and-why-is-it-in-our-creed/

What needs to be understood is that these definitions were attempts to reconcile one God when three separate persons are described as God in the NT.

I did read your link.
Based solely on what the author wrote, I would say he would answer both of my questions with a yes. He would then say that being consubstantial with God the Father entails more than being consubstantial with oneself (three Titles for Obama) or being consubstantial with me (Jesus and I are consubstantial ).
Do you agree?
Charity, TOm

 

[ajcstr]

And LDS understands completely how God created the whole universe from nothing? No mystery there?

I’m glad you posted this because my impression is that LDS does NOT believe this and I would be interested to see an LDS response to that statement.

 

[ajcstr]

I did read your link.
Based solely on what the author wrote, I would say he would answer both of my questions with a yes. He would then say that being consubstantial with God the Father entails more than being consubstantial with oneself (three Titles for Obama) or being consubstantial with me (Jesus and I are consubstantial ).
Do you agree?
Charity, TOm

Again, I would say no because Jesus is worthy of worship and you (or I) are not.

 

[Michael68]

I did read your link.
Based solely on what the author wrote, I would say he would answer both of my questions with a yes. He would then say that being consubstantial with God the Father entails more than being consubstantial with oneself (three Titles for Obama) or being consubstantial with me (Jesus and I are consubstantial ).
Do you agree?
Charity, TOm

No

 

[ajcstr]

I did read your link.
Based solely on what the author wrote, I would say he would answer both of my questions with a yes. He would then say that being consubstantial with God the Father entails more than being consubstantial with oneself (three Titles for Obama) or being consubstantial with me (Jesus and I are consubstantial ).
Do you agree?
Charity, TOm

I read the Obama part of your question wrong - I thought you were saying Mr and Mrs Obama could be considered consubstantial with each other.

So as your question is posed is probably more in line with Sabellianism/Modalism which was declared a heresy by the Church:

In Christianity, Sabellianism in the Eastern church or Patripassianism in the Western church (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian or anti-trinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son, and Holy Spirit are three different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead—that there are no real or substantial differences among the three, such that there is no substantial identity for the Spirit or the Son.

 

[TOmNossor]

Goodmorning sir,
I hope I didn’t appear rude. I have an answer that took me a very long time to understand. Its a mystery. Plain and simple. I do not need to break it down the very core.

I didn’t think it was rude and I am poking on a sacred Catholic truth so I am being obnoxious.
I am responding to a poster who was critical of a LDS for not understanding “consubstantial.” It is my position that "mystery " might be the best one can do, but Catholics will deny dogma regularly when they try to go beyond a shrug and “mystery.”
Charity, TOm

 

[Michael68]

I didn’t think it was rude and I am poking on a sacred Catholic truth so I am being obnoxious.
I am responding to a poster who was critical of a LDS for not understanding “consubstantial.” It is my position that "mystery " might be the best one can do, but Catholics will deny dogma regularly when they try to go beyond a shrug and “mystery.”
Charity, TOm

I have a hope that one day in Heaven, i can have a conversation with my Lord about these mysteries!

 

[LivingWaters7]

Can you or any Catholic define “consubstantiation” or more importantly the creedal word you say every Sunday "consubstantial? "
I personally believe LDS are on common ground (in common with most or all Catholics) when they do not know what to mean when saying "consubstantial. "

Charity, TOm

I would first like to hear what jane doe has to say about what it means to be able to say “Are we to be one with the Father through co-substantation? That doesn’t make any sense.” To say that it doesn’t make sense tells me that you have to have some understanding (whether correct or incorrect) about it to make such a statement.

If you can’t wait, this is something I’ve addressed many times before, so you can search my prior posts in the mean time.

 

[TOmNossor]

I have a hope that one day in Heaven, i can have a conversation with my Lord about these mysteries!

I hope we both can!
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

And LDS understands completely how God created the whole universe from nothing? No mystery there?

LDS do not generally believe in Creation ex Nihilo.

I am not sure what you want me to defend.

I believe God knows all truth instantly and this violates General Relativity… I do not know how to reconcile the understanding I have of general relativity with God’s omniscience. That is a mystery for me.
I attempt to not embrace bald contradictions, but embracing thinga I do not understand is to be expected.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Again, I would say no because Jesus is worthy of worship and you (or I) are not.

Are saying that inherent in the word “consubstantial” is “worthy of worship?”
Or are you saying that to be “consubstantial” with Jesus is to be worthy of worship.

Perhaps I can ask, "Are you and I consubstantial"
Charity, TOm

 

[ajcstr]

LDS do not generally believe in Creation ex Nihilo.

I am not sure what you want me to defend.

I believe God knows all truth instantly and this violates General Relativity… I do not know how to reconcile the understanding I have of general relativity with God’s omniscience. That is a mystery for me.
I attempt to not embrace bald contradictions, but embracing thinga I do not understand is to be expected.
Charity, TOm

Would it be correct to say that Mormons believe that the universe is eternal and all that is known via revelation is that God is the God of this planet. I have heard it described this way but not sure if it is accurate or not.

 

[JMM1957]

LDS do not generally believe in Creation ex Nihilo.

I am not sure what you want me to defend.

I believe God knows all truth instantly and this violates General Relativity… I do not know how to reconcile the understanding I have of general relativity with God’s omniscience. That is a mystery for me.
I attempt to not embrace bald contradictions, but embracing thinga I do not understand is to be expected.
Charity, TOm

So the Biblical story of creation is just for our finite minds to try to comprehend about the who, what, when and why of everything?

 

[Horton]

Let me rephrase.

**Would it be correct to say that Obama, the husband of Michelle, and the President of the United States are consubstantial (one in being)?

Would it be correct to say that Jesus Christ who died on the cross and I are consubstantial (one in being)?

What would those mean relative to the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consubstantial?

I really think this Catholic teaching** is quite murky.

And what is not the same? How so? What are the answers to my questions?

I do not believe Catholics understand these things, but I am sure I cannot make sense of the language and concepts used by Catholics.
Charity, TOm

Your above post is extremely rude. Just because the question wasn’t answered the way you believed it should be you resort to internet yelling? Very childish.

A quick search of any number of websites would have given you a more expanded explanation of the correct answers given by other posters. Here are some.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consubstantiality

*The bishops at the Council of Nicea (AD 325), in order to ensure that Jesus was professed as the eternal Son of God, equal to the Father, stated that he is "the Son of God, begotten from the Father, the only-begotten, that is from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, the same substance ( homoousion) with the Father
*
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/roman-missal/consubstantial-with-the-father.cfm

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/consubstantial

The answers to your specific questions are No & No.

And NO we are not consubstantial with each other as we do not meet the definitions above.

 

[TOmNossor]

Your above post is extremely rude. Just because the question wasn’t answered the way you believed it should be you resort to internet yelling? Very childish.

Horton,
I was typing on my phone. I was trying to highlight my initial questions AND highlight the word I changed in response to being told that “concept” was not correct but “truth” was.
I didn’t know how big it would become, but I am sorry if I offended you.
None of which means I am not childish of course.
I hope to respond more to things latter, but thought I would offer that quickly. I think I am particularly adept at offending you, but it would seem that the response I got indicated that others thought I was offended when I was not. Such is the way in Internet discussions, but I will try to be better.
Charity, TOm