Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

[Tarquin]

I assure you, we do. Is understanding different? Yes. But just because LDS believe differently does not mean they do not acknowledge Christ’s divinity.

Catholics and Mormons have a different concept also of what “divinity” is or means. For Catholics, there are a few truly “Divine” beings. For Mormons, virtually all humanity possesses a divinity on par with the Creator Himself. Divinity, for Mormons, seems possibly to equate with “the better part of humanity” For Catholics, Divinity refers to a unique, absolute, original creative, metaphysical and transcendent being that was not “formed” and “embodied” by a prior existent being.

 

[jane_doe]

For Mormons, virtually all humanity possesses a divinity on par with the Creator Himself.

False statement.

Divinity, for Mormons, seems possibly to equate with “the better part of humanity”

No.

 

[Tarquin]

I appreciate you bringing Ephesians 1:5 to my attention.

… even Mosiah 5:7 agrees that we become, by conversion of our hearts,
and through adoption,
sons and daughters of God;
unlike Christ, who by nature was born Son of God:
"… ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name;
therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters."

Likewise, it is not that we *are *joint-heirs at birth, but we *become *join-heirs. Christ (whether man or concept) is the original Son of God; we are the *adopted *heirs.

. . . . . . . . . .

I wonder if Acts 17:29 is rhetorical, an attempt to bridge the gap between those Greeks’ belief they are the offspring of the gods, to a Christian perspective in which since we are not stone but are in the image of God, therefore those Greeks should not be worshipping stone images. If they believe they are the offspring of gods, or God, they should abandon their traditional worship! If Paul did believe he was the literal offspring of God, when Greeks attempted to worship him, he should have said, “That’s right! I’m the offspring of God. Same race as him. Worthy of devotion like him. Another Son, like Jesus.”

 

[Tarquin]

False statement.

True statement.

No.

Yes.

 

[RebeccaJ]

gazelam:

In addition to misapplying this passage, critics also fail to recognize the growing body of evidence that shows that the Jewish religion was not strictly monotheistic until quite late in its development, certainly after the era in which Isaiah was written. When this evidence is considered, it appears that Judaism originally taught that though there are indeed other divine beings, some of whom are called gods, none of these are to be worshiped except for the God of gods who created all things and who revealed Himself to Moses.

Correction, the Hebrew people struggled with polytheism. Early on it is easy to understand they viewed pagan “gods” as actually existing. Sometimes worshipping them based on circumstance such as, joining in worship according to local non-Hebraic beliefs and practices, syncretic incorporation of pagan practices, and viewing the pagan gods of conquerors as superior.

Those are the usual errors of the Hebrews, and they are constantly being corrected towards an understanding of One God. It can be understood they reached this understanding, finally, in Isaiah, post exile, where a declaration of One God is made. Finally. At that point the Israelites no longer view the pagan “gods” as real and they cease the syncretic blending of pagan gods into their worship.

FAIR once again is only telling part of the story. God led the Hebrews to an understanding of a singular God. This article only shows that Mormons work hard at regressing into paganism, using the errors of Hebrews as an excuse.

 

[Stephen168]

Catholics and Mormons have a different concept also of what “divinity” is or means. For Catholics, there are a few truly “Divine” beings. For Mormons, virtually all humanity possesses a divinity on par with the Creator Himself. Divinity, for Mormons, seems possibly to equate with “the better part of humanity” For Catholics, Divinity refers to a unique, absolute, original creative, metaphysical and transcendent being that was not “formed” and “embodied” by a prior existent being.

True and gazelam is providing the justification for that belief which is contrary to Christian belief.

 

[zaffiroborant]

This passage and other similar proof texts from the Hebrew scriptures are misused by critics. When read in context, it is clear that the intent of the passage is to differentiate YHWH from the foreign gods and idols in the cultures surrounding the Jews.

The context of this passage makes it clear that the issue being addressed is not one of general theology but rather a very specific and practical command to recognize YHWH as Israel’s only god and the only god to be worshiped.

I read all of chapter 43 and I disagree with this, the whole chapter is one of God showing He is over everything, all nations in spite of the belief otherwise, the lives of all humans and animals are His and no one else’s. The whole chapter is one of God proving He is the only God that exists and says nothing about singling Him out of a group of gods for worship.

In addition to misapplying this passage, critics also fail to recognize the growing body of evidence that shows that the Jewish religion was not strictly monotheistic until quite late in its development, certainly after the era in which Isaiah was written. When this evidence is considered, it appears that Judaism originally taught that though there are indeed other divine beings, some of whom are called gods, none of these are to be worshiped except for the God of gods who created all things and who revealed Himself to Moses.

Well I don’t see that this matters one whit, so what if Judaism went from polytheist to monotheist? Looks like a correction in their understanding to me, and I don’t understand why Mormons want to go backwards in this and other areas.

 

[JMM1957]

I read all of chapter 43 and I disagree with this, the whole chapter is one of God showing He is over everything, all nations in spite of the belief otherwise, the lives of all humans and animals are His and no one else’s. The whole chapter is one of God proving He is the only God that exists and says nothing about singling Him out of a group of gods for worship.

Well I don’t see that this matters one whit, so what if Judaism went from polytheist to monotheist? Looks like a correction in their understanding to me, and I don’t understand why Mormons want to go backwards in this and other areas.

Agree.

 

[PJM]

Why not just start another thread and then you can rehash all the same old P vs. CC stuff to your heart’s content and you won’t have to worry about going off topic?

Thanks and I Do and I HAVE:thumbsup:

God Bless you

 

[gazelam]

Through Jesus, we are adopted sons and daughter of God, and thus heirs with Christ. As Christ was glorified, so shall we be. This does not mean that we will become God or God’s.

This is not what scripture says.

I was clearly wrong. I appreciate you and Tarquin bringing this to my attention.

Acts 17:29 clearly states that we are the offspring of God.

Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.

The word “offspring” is translated from the Greek word “genos”.

See biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/17-29.htm.

Per wikipedia, genos can be translated to mean "race, “stock”, or “kin”. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genos.

I still believe this verse shows we (as in the entire human race) are ontologically of the same nature are God the Father.

So I believe that your assertion is incorrect. There is no adoption implied in “genos”, and it definitely implies an ontological similarity. We are the same race as God. Offspring can become like their progenitors.

Yes, we are offspring of God, and we are also adopted children of God. We were created by God, in the Book of Genesis we see: “Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” The Hebrew word can mean either spirit or breath.

Eph. 1:5; “He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.”

We can see that we are both the offspring of God, and His adopted children through Jesus Christ.

 

[gazelam]

Through Jesus, we are adopted sons and daughter of God, and thus heirs with Christ. As Christ was glorified, so shall we be. This does not mean that we will become God or God’s.

This is not what scripture says.

I was clearly wrong. I appreciate you and Tarquin bringing this to my attention.

Acts 17:29 clearly states that we are the offspring of God.

Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.

The word “offspring” is translated from the Greek word “genos”.

See biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/17-29.htm.

Per wikipedia, genos can be translated to mean "race, “stock”, or “kin”. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genos.

I still believe this verse shows we (as in the entire human race) are ontologically of the same nature are God the Father.

So I believe that your assertion is incorrect. There is no adoption implied in “genos”, and it definitely implies an ontological similarity. We are the same race as God. Offspring can become like their progenitors.

I now agree with your assertion.

Yes, we are offspring of God, and we are also adopted children of God. We were created by God, in the Book of Genesis we see: “Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” The Hebrew word can mean either spirit or breath.

Eph. 1:5; “He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.”

We can see that we are both the offspring of God, and His adopted children through Jesus Christ.

I believe those who choose to follow Christ are those who are adopted. Scripture describes this condition of being a disciple in different ways (i.e., born again - John 3:5, converted - Luke 22:32, rejection of the natural man/natural person and becoming a spiritual man/spiritual person - 1 Corinthians 2:6-16)

I would now state my position as being those who are adopted of God can go on to become like God in every aspect given our divine parentage. Take care and God bless!

 

[JMM1957]

I believe those who choose to follow Christ are those who are adopted. Scripture describes this condition of being a disciple in different ways (i.e., born again - John 3:5, converted - Luke 22:32, rejection of the natural man/natural person and becoming a spiritual man/spiritual person - 1 Corinthians 2:6-16)

I would now state my position as being those who are adopted of God can go on to become like God in every aspect given our divine parentage. Take care and God bless!

Correct.

 

[JMM1957]

I would now state my position as being those who are adopted of God can go on to become like God in every aspect given our divine parentage. Take care and God bless!

Eph. 5:1;“Be imitators of God, therefore, as beloved children”

Matt. 5:48;“Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.”

We should strive to be like God while we are here, although we will all fall short obviously. We will never be equal in power to the One True God though, not here or ever. God is God.

 

[PJM]

I was clearly wrong. I appreciate you and Tarquin bringing this to my attention.

I still believe this verse shows we (as in the entire human race) are ontologically of the same nature are God the Father.

I now agree with your assertion.

I believe those who choose to follow Christ are those who are adopted. Scripture describes this condition of being a disciple in different ways (i.e., born again - John 3:5, converted - Luke 22:32, rejection of the natural man/natural person and becoming a spiritual man/spiritual person - 1 Corinthians 2:6-16)

I would now state my position as being those who are adopted of God can go on to become like God in every aspect given our divine parentage. Take care and God bless!

OK

For the sake of discussion, just WHAT does it mean to “follow c]Christ?”

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[ajcstr]

This alone is a whole other discussion. Personally, I don’t hear Catholics use the word “apostate” when referring to Protestant’s, although the idea is the same.

This just popped into my head so I’ll go back to it

As far as the correct lingo, I would say at the point of the Reformation, Catholics would be viewed as apostates and Protestants would be viewed as heretics.

Unfortunately for some times have not changed.

 

[gazelam]

OK

For the sake of discussion, just WHAT does it mean to “follow c]Christ?”

God Bless you

Patrick

Well, the short answer is to keep the commandments, including seeking for and following personal guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ajcstr]

Well, the short answer is to keep the commandments, including seeking for and following personal guidance of the Holy Spirit.

One thing that recently occurred as I was revisiting the Romans 3 vs James 2 debate is that you could follow the 10 commandments to the letter and never perform one act of charity. Jesus also preached love of your brother.

 

[jane_doe]

One thing that recently occurred as I was revisiting the Romans 3 vs James 2 debate is that you could follow the 10 commandments to the letter and never perform one act of charity. Jesus also preached love of your brother.

ALL of the commandments includes the two Great Commandments of loving God and loving your neighbor.

 

[Michael68]

ALL of the commandments includes the two Great Commandments of loving God and loving your neighbor.

Yes, you are correct!

 

[PJM]

Well, the short answer is to keep the commandments, including seeking for and following personal guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So my friend, taking you are you’re word…

HOW does anyone know if they are in FACT “following the Holy Spirit”? {not think, KNOW?}

Does the LDS teach believe in the Trinity now?

God Bless you

Partick