Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

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In my opinion I feel the LDS are heretics, their belief is a heresy. It seems to me God is an afterthought for them. Joseph Smith decided he wanted to rule a group of people and being the experienced con man he was, throwing a bit of religion gave his theory a bit more credit.

We can say they are not Christian because they do not adhere to mainline creeds and it’s difficult to call them a separate religion as Judaism and Islam due to their belief about who God is.
God and Christ’s Atonement for my sins at this Easter time have, will continue to supercede Joseph Smith. For me, this is everyday in my spritual life, not just weeks before Ash Wednesday to Easter Sunday. I love Mary, mother of God, nonetheless whether Joseph Smith or her (and of course have been and are important to me)---- plain and simple, Jesus Christ is my Savior and my Advocate — the Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords as the world turns.
 
plain and simple, Jesus Christ is my Savior and my Advocate — the Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords as the world turns.
Well, to be fair, Christ will be your “Lord of Lords” until you (hopefully) achieve the delights of the Celestial Kingdom, where you, in fact, will be “Lord of Lords” to all your “spirit children” in the same manner your “Elohim” is your “Lord”.

Is this a correct understanding, sir?
 
God and Christ’s Atonement for my sins at this Easter time have, will continue to supercede Joseph Smith. For me, this is everyday in my spritual life, not just weeks before Ash Wednesday to Easter Sunday. I love Mary, mother of God, nonetheless whether Joseph Smith or her (and of course have been and are important to me)---- plain and simple, Jesus Christ is my Savior and my Advocate — the Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords as the world turns.
If this statement is true then you must have quite a bit of cognitive dissonance. According to LDS practice, both can not be true.

Do you call yourself a Christian? If so, why?
 
Well, to be fair, Christ will be your “Lord of Lords” until you (hopefully) achieve the delights of the Celestial Kingdom, where you, in fact, will be “Lord of Lords” to all your “spirit children” in the same manner your “Elohim” is your “Lord”.

Is this a correct understanding, sir?
No it is not and never will be.
 
People can, and do, exaggerate both the non-Christian and Christian aspects of Mormonism.

Mormonism’s obsession is with becoming gods.
My obsession continues to be better person through the gospel of Jesus Christ. Your quote validates further my interest with those that I have known for years to build goodwill, whether one joins my church or no church/religion at all.
 
People can, and do, exaggerate both the non-Christian and Christian aspects of Mormonism.

Mormonism’s obsession is with becoming gods.
CCC 460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
 
My obsession continues to be better person through the gospel of Jesus Christ.
:shrug:A Christian saying the same thing would mean a different thing.
Your quote validates further my interest with those that I have known for years to build goodwill, whether one joins my church or no church/religion at all.
Another 🤷 since “goodwill” is subjective.
 
CCC 460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
Lord have mercy, not this again. Maybe there will come a day when Mormons stop interpreting Catholic documents using a Mormon decoder ring.

Meanwhile, I recommend cuf.org/2006/01/so-that-we-might-become-god-understanding-catechism-no-460/
 
CCC 460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
Of course Christians don’t believe what Mormons believe about becoming a god. which it why Mormons are not Christian.
Joseph Smith:
He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ did; and I will show it from the Bible.
"Encyclopedia of Mormonism:
Gods and humans represent a single divine lineage, the same species of being, although they and he are at different stages of progress. This doctrine is stated concisely in a well-known couplet by President Lorenzo Snow: "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be
Doctrine & Convenants 121:32 said:
*According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.

But you already know that, which is not very honest of you.
I’ve been looking at this forum long enough to know that the Catholic interpretation of CCC 460 does not support the LDS view of this matter even though on the surface it may appear to.
 
I had to take a peak.

CCC460 is always taken out of context by Mormons who were not guided to read the footnotes and the doctrines leading up to this participation of being adopted sons and daughters of God.

To want to become a god is the Original Sin that broke our relationship with God.

One could also say, and I am not meaning this about Mormons in themselves…is what the Anti Christ wants…to take the place of God.

So for me, when somebody wants to be God…I want to run as far away as I can. Wanting to be a god is opposite of Christianity.

It is the Word of God and the life of the sacraments, it is the goal of all Catholics to enter into the life of the Holy Trinity by being humble servants, of being Christ’s heart, hands, feet in loving service, and our desire to be one with Him some day in heaven through the participation of grace in Christ and nothing more.

CCC460 means, if you look to the previous doctrines leading up to it, that we are to participate in the grace of Christ and that there is this incredible life living within the Holy Trinity that the Mormons likewise reject and do not have the Trinitarian baptism.

And – the footnotes are referring to the Eucharist, the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ – separate from us, we mere mortals…Who Christ is and who we are not.

And finally the construct of Mormonism was that the great Roman Church had believes that were abominations. And I just shared them with Mormons right now.

So in now way can CCC460 be used to bolster Mormonism, inherently reject Original Sin, or cause us to want to be mini anti christs…I mean, when I first heard this doctrine was being held out in isolation and turned into something it most vehemently contradicts, well…to say the least, I felt violated.

So to mis interpret CCC460, to turn it into something opposite, like turned into a form of self idolatry…is way out…way out and not truthful because that is not what it is intended to say.
 
I think they are Christian with just a very unorthodox heretical view of Christianity. The true Church of God never succumbs. It has weathered many many heresies in history right from when the Apostles were still alive. ( Paul and Peters letters speak about false prophets rising up in congregations even in their day.) So it makes sense heretical groups will pop up all the time. I view these two groups like I view the Montanist or Arian heresies; which are just that, leading people from truth . In the end the Catholic Church is the true Church.
 
Both Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons claim a apostasy occurred after the Apostles died and they are the true Church restored.
They have much in common with Protestantism itself.

Somehow the Church established by Christ lost the true faith. LDS and JW’s just profess that this happened very early on, right at the death of the last apostles.

Which means that:
  • Jesus Christ didn’t mean what he said (I will send the paraclete to lead the Church to ALL truth and the gates of hell will NOT prevail) OR he was not powerful enough to carry it through.
I am not going to say how ridiculous the apostasy thing is.
Yet somehow, someway, they believe that the New Testament canon of 27 books are all God’s Written Word - and none of the other 300+ early Christian writings are and have been mistakenly left out.

The canon itself was discerned and affirmed by Catholic Bishops nearly 300 years after this great apostasy began.

Nah.

The NT canon itself is proof that there was no great apostasy. And hence, no need for JS and a restoration.
 
They have much in common with Protestantism itself.

Somehow the Church established by Christ lost the true faith. LDS and JW’s just profess that this happened very early on, right at the death of the last apostles.

Which means that:
  • Jesus Christ didn’t mean what he said (I will send the paraclete to lead the Church to ALL truth and the gates of hell will NOT prevail) OR he was not powerful enough to carry it through.
Two points. One, not all of what you consider to be “Protestants” believe that the Catholic Church necessarily lost the “true faith”. And second, most protestant churches have a different interpretation of what makes up “Christ’s Church”, which I suspect you’re aware of 😉
Yet somehow, someway, they believe that the New Testament canon of 27 books are all God’s Written Word - and none of the other 300+ early Christian writings are and have been mistakenly left out.
The canon itself was discerned and affirmed by Catholic Bishops nearly 300 years after this great apostasy began.
The NT canon itself is proof that there was no great apostasy. And hence, no need for JS and a restoration.
Yeah that has to be one of the stranger points I’ve never understood for both Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses. I mean yes both to one extent or another have their own translation of the bible, but the books contained in it, are still the same books contained in the bible most who call themselves Christian use. So if the rest of us went apostate after the apostles, wouldn’t that make the bible other Christians agreed on apostate? 🤷
 
Yeah that has to be one of the stranger points I’ve never understood for both Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses. I mean yes both to one extent or another have their own translation of the bible, but the books contained in it, are still the same books contained in the bible most who call themselves Christian use. So if the rest of us went apostate after the apostles, wouldn’t that make the bible other Christians agreed on apostate? 🤷
This is true. Actually Mormons and JW could easily have said that New Testament is wrong and chosen a completely different library for it, seeing as the Church was in apostasy so how would they be able to have the authority to make a Canon? Actually a great book Mormons could have used if they created their own New Testament would be " The Shepherd of Hermas ", which although was very popular in early Christianity, and even cited as scripture by some early Church Fathers, in time lost support because it actually supported claims of many heresies which came to be such as Docetism, Montanism, Arianism. The Book seems to promote further public revelation through a period of time, which would support Mormons claims very much so. Also they could use the “Apocalypse of Peter,” because at the end Christ promises that in the end God will free everyone from Hell and everyone will go to heaven. I believe that is a belief in Mormonism as well, that there really isn’t any hell persay, but a spirit prison which seems to resemble purgatory to some extent, but in time everyone is freed from it. And again this was a very popular book in early Christianity, was cited by some Church Fathers, but many scholars believe this phrase of salvation of all was just to much out of line with the beliefs even taught by Christ, thus was not put in the Canon.
 
This is true. Actually Mormons and JW could easily have said that New Testament is wrong and chosen a completely different library for it, seeing as the Church was in apostasy so how would they be able to have the authority to make a Canon? Actually a great book Mormons could have used if they created their own New Testament would be " The Shepherd of Hermas ", which although was very popular in early Christianity, and even cited as scripture by some early Church Fathers, in time lost support because it actually supported claims of many heresies which came to be such as Docetism, Montanism, Arianism. The Book seems to promote further public revelation through a period of time, which would support Mormons claims very much so. Also they could use the “Apocalypse of Peter,” because at the end Christ promises that in the end God will free everyone from Hell and everyone will go to heaven. I believe that is a belief in Mormonism as well, that there really isn’t any hell persay, but a spirit prison which seems to resemble purgatory to some extent, but in time everyone is freed from it. And again this was a very popular book in early Christianity, was cited by some Church Fathers, but many scholars believe this phrase of salvation of all was just to much out of line with the beliefs even taught by Christ, thus was not put in the Canon.
Very good point. You’d think the church fathers of one or both of those faiths would have found other books to include in their version of the bible to differentiate it. Unless their claim is that even in apostasy those who thought they were true Christians made the right choices in selecting books of the bible even if their translations, etc… were wrong? I mean the Mormons do this to some extent with the Book of Mormon I suppose essentially portraying the Bible as an incomplete record of Christ’s time on Earth and missing the “second act” in America. But not so for the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
 
The Mormon Church has for awhile now been gleaning the Catholic Church’s way of affirming its apostolic tradition by now researching. They have their own scribes now scrupulously pondering and researching at the Vatican Library, but some how don’t see the connection of our long documented history that also includes archaeology and anthropology, as well as historical context in which past decisions were made in implementing our faith.

Some of their language as in the case in our relationship with the gay population sounds word for word Catholic. My grandson just came up and now have a senior moment…will come back with the phrase used by the American Catholic bishops, …‘through no fault of their own’…
 
One, not all of what you consider to be “Protestants” believe that the Catholic Church necessarily lost the “true faith”.
How many books in your Old Testament? I can’t think of a protestant denomination that doesn’t profess 39 books. Somehow, some way, those 4th c Catholic Bishops lost the true faith… not knowing what was, and was not the Written Word of God. And somehow the Catholic Church lost the knowledge that the “true faith”, that professed by the apostles to their descendants was one that included the doctrines of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.
And second, most protestant churches have a different interpretation of what makes up “Christ’s Church”, which I suspect you’re aware of 😉
Yes, the Catholic Church lost this element of the True Faith as well. 🤷
Yeah that has to be one of the stranger points I’ve never understood for both Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses. I mean yes both to one extent or another have their own translation of the bible, but the books contained in it, are still the same books contained in the bible most who call themselves Christian use
They are very protestant in regards to the canon, professing that the NT contains 27 books and the OT contains 66 books. Yet those early Catholic Bishops who they tacitly give authority to in determining the NT canon of 27 books, also professed belief in the OT containing 46 books.

If one can’t trust them on the latter, why trust them on the former?

That’s a strange point for all denominations, JW’s and LDS included.
 
How many books in your Old Testament?
Same as you I suspect. My church includes the Deuterocanon in our bible as well as
Code:
1 Esdras (Vulgate 3 Esdras)
2 Esdras (Vulgate 4 Esdras)
Prayer of Manasseh
And the deuterocanon is utilized as part of our lectionary used in mass. 🤷
 
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