Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

[Porknpie]

Same as you I suspect. My church includes the Deuterocanon in our bible as well as

1 Esdras (Vulgate 3 Esdras)
2 Esdras (Vulgate 4 Esdras)
Prayer of Manasseh

And the deuterocanon is utilized as part of our lectionary used in mass.

Padres,

Your OT has more books than the Catholic bible. Who had the authority to declare these to be theopneustos or not?

I’m still not clear on how many OT books are in your bible, and are they ALL considered God-breathed?

 

[gazelam]

The Mormon Church has for awhile now been gleaning the Catholic Church’s way of affirming its apostolic tradition by now researching. They have their own scribes now scrupulously pondering and researching at the Vatican Library…

Who are these Mormon scribes now scrupulously pondering and researching at the Vatican Library?

 

[jas84173]

Padres,

Your OT has more books than the Catholic bible. Who had the authority to declare these to be theopneustos or not?

I’m still not clear on how many OT books are in your bible, and are they ALL considered God-breathed?

They are in an appendix to the Latin Vulgate as well. Not to mention 3 and 4 Esdras ( as 1 and 2 Esdras are Ezra and Nehemiah in the Vulgate) are in Catholic Liturgy. And Prayer of Mannaseh is cited in the Liturgy of the Hours.

newliturgicalmovement.org/2017/01/actual-apocrypha-in-liturgy.html?m=1

 

[Vonsalza]

Who are these Mormon scribes now scrupulously pondering and researching at the Vatican Library?

I thought this was silly too.

Since Smith-and-Company have seer-stones to place into hats, why would they need to travel to Rome to study anything?

 

[KathleenGee]

The Vatican archives are the greatest in the world.

I read a few years back that Mormons had gone there to do research…I called them ‘scribes’.

The Jewish ‘Pave the Way’ organization was allowed in to study the documents pertaining t Pius XII and the Jewish people. The head was admittedly anti Pius all his life. To make it short, he and his group found out that no one had done more for the Jews than Pius himself. They went back in to do more research on other areas of controversy and again, wondered why the Church did not defend itself more.

The Church is too busy every day…each day has enough of its own problems.

The archives basically give the context of the times in the Church when certain positions, teachings, etc. were taken.

I also read about a Jewish rabbi who went to the Vatican Library and then went 10 flights down stairs looking for a gold menorah. He mentioned this to some women working down there, and they just looked at him and laughed. There were no stolen jewish artifacts down there, and unfortunately it looks like they were melted down around the time of the Diaspora.

I see nothing wrong with Mormons wanting to access the archives. Just don’t want them to misuse the intent of the archives into something else…like CCC460.

There is a good read out there, ‘Bearing False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History’, Rodney Stark, non Catholic.

 

[Tarquin]

“at” may have been an imprecise word. Although we say we are “at”
a website, when talking about physical locations,
it more commonly means physical presence at tose physical locations.
We can chose to nitpick a preposition to death,
or give a person the benefit of the doubt - “at”
as in “physically there” or “at” as in “involved in”
(and of course “in” here doesn’t mean “inside”
any more than “at” means “alongside” )

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=886995

mi.byu.edu/scholars-begin-using-vatican-syriac-manuscripts-online/

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks for plugging in…the first thread goes back about 5 years ago. I haven’t commented much for a couple of years with growing family needs and a disabled son. I remember commenting on this regarding Mormons at work at the Vatican…as well as remember the photo of the two Mormon men studying.

Thanks for the clarification as well for the second link, never saw that one, clarifying how much they were really allowed to access…that demonstrates a different way of looking at things by Mormons and how they make claims.

Remember the one going back to the ‘Deseret News’, May 2008, how the early church fathers proved Joseph Smith right on theosis…again another claim…different approach.

My concerns are the same now as they were then.

 

[Vonsalza]

Their prophet once said that everyone has a seer stone.

If they can just hand these out, we’d put the whole Mormonism vs. Everyone Else issue to bed. I think it might even convince the likes of Richard Dawkins.

However, it turns out Mr. Smith was as full-of-bull on this as he was virtually everything else he ever taught.

 

[John_Yurich_USA]

Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are most certainly not Christians as they deny that Jesus is God and they do not worship Jesus as God.

 

[gazelam]

Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are most certainly not Christians as they deny that Jesus is God and they do not worship Jesus as God.

The title page of the Book of Mormon specifically states that one of its purposes is…

the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God

See lds.org/scriptures/bofm/bofm-title?lang=eng.

We do worship God the Father differently than we worship Christ. We worship the Father the same way Jesus worshipped the Father. I hope this helps…

 

[John_Yurich_USA]

The title page of the Book of Mormon specifically states that one of its purposes is…

the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God

See lds.org/scriptures/bofm/bofm-title?lang=eng.

We do worship God the Father differently than we worship Christ. We worship the Father the same way Jesus worshipped the Father. I hope this helps…

Well the jesus of the Mormons is most certainly not the Jesus of the Bible. I know because I have studied Mormonism and they believe in and worship a multiplicity of gods, believe that Satan is the brother of Jesus and believe that the Holy Spirit is a fluid or substance. So the god of the Mormons, the jesus of the Mormons and the holy spirit of the Mormons is not the same God, the same Jesus and the same Holy Spirit of the Bible. And since the Book of Mormon is nothing but satanic trash than everything in it is straight from Hell and Satan.

 

[Porknpie]

The title page of the Book of Mormon specifically states that one of its purposes is…

the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God

LDS believe Jesus is a created being, was once a man, and thus he’s not eternal before all ages.

What points Gazelam do LDS disagree with from the creed below (Council of Nicea, 325) ? And I guess a follow up question would be, if the LDS differ from the below points, how do you know that you (LDS) are right, and that those early Christians error’d?

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[gazelam]

Well the jesus of the Mormons is most certainly not the Jesus of the Bible. I know because I have studied Mormonism and they believe in and worship a multiplicity of gods

Which gods do you believe that we worship?

believe that Satan is the brother of Jesus

See Job 1:6 and Job 2:1

and believe that the Holy Spirit is a fluid or substance.

So did Tertullian.

 

[PRmerger]

Which gods do you believe that we worship?

I think the objection I have is that you don’t worship Jesus.

 

[Horton]

LDS believe Jesus is a created being, was once a man, and thus he’s not eternal before all ages.

What points Gazelam do LDS disagree with from the creed below (Council of Nicea, 325) ? And I guess a follow up question would be, if the LDS differ from the below points, how do you know that you (LDS) are right, and that those early Christians error’d?

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Silly you Looking for a direct answer to a direct question.

 

[Porknpie]

Silly you Looking for a direct answer to a direct question.

Perhaps. I did post a simple question. The LDS believe that there was a “great apostasy” shortly after the death of the last apostle. Most missionaries that I speak to mark the date of this event to around 100 ad, + or -. So some 225 years later, by Nicea, the Church was greatly off the track. When one looks to what those Bishops professed at the Council of Nicea in the Creed, it should be straight forward to point out where the LDS Church believes that the Catholic Church error’d. And likely, not just once but many times in the same creed.

I would think a direct answer would be easy to accomplish, something along this line: “The LDS Church believes that the Catholic Church error’d here, here and here in the Nicean Creed”. And we know that the LDS Church is right on these points because _____ .

 

[jas84173]

Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are most certainly not Christians as they deny that Jesus is God and they do not worship Jesus as God.

I think that makes it an interpretation of what Christianity is then. If you believe in the Orthodox view which the Nicaea Creed States, then no they aren’t. However if it can be then I would say they are, although a heresy.

 

[Stephen168]

Either Mormonisn is included in general Christianity, or Christianity didn’t start until the Council of Nicea.

False dilemma

1. Mormonism is included in general Christianity and Christianity started at the time of Christ
2. Mormonism is not Christian and Christianity started at the time of Christ
3. Mormonism is included in general Christianity and Christianity started at the time of Calvin
4. Mormonism is not Christian and Christianity started at the time of Calvin
5. Mormonism is included in general Christianity and Christianity started at the time of Cotton Mather
6. Mormonism is not Christian and Christianity started at the time of Cotton Mather
7. Mormonism is included in general Christianity and Christianity started at the time of Charles Russell
8. Mormonism is not Christian and Christianity started at the time of Charles Russell.

I’m sure there are more

I have reason to believe #4 is true.

 

[jas84173]

Either Mormonisn is included in general Christianity, or Christianity didn’t start until the Council of Nicea.

I view both Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses as something comparable to early Christian heresies such as Marcionism or Docetism. Interestingly their view of Jesus is similar to their view.

With that said; both groups are incredible heresies. I believe Mormonism only survived the 19th century because of the persecution it received by mainstream Christians. However, Mormonism was not the only kind of quack religion created in the 19th century. A whole wave of movements emerged by self proclaimed prophets who claimed some further revelation. The vast majority withered away after the prophet died and people just assimilated back into mainstream Christianity. Jehovah’s Witnesses emerged in the same period however emphasize the Bible to almost define everything and both are apocalyptic groups. How many times did the JW say the world would end? And they changed a the Bible translation to meet their own needs which in itself may be a larger heresy than even believing the BOM. Ellen G White was also a prophetess, and Seventh Day Adventists regard her writings as close to scripture.

Something I never get an answer from any of these groups is , why if the Church ceased to exist, do they accept the Canon of the New Testament which wasn’t decided on until the 4th century. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses should make their own Canon in that case. I’d actually find their apostasy claims more serious. I always joke that the Shepherd of Hermas would be perfect for Mormons because it promotes further revelation through time. And the Apocalypse of Peter would be perfect for Jehovah’s Witnesses because it promises universal salvation at the end of time.

 

[KathleenGee]

They can’t make a canon because they believe in progression, constantly evolving.