Are Mormons Christians

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steve

everything is uncreated and eternal? that is what smithians teach?

such a doctrine contradicts reality. have they never seen a pregnant woman?
Basically, yes, Mormons (or should I say, Smithians) believe that everything (matter, light, intelligence) is eternal.

Yes, it does contradict reality. This is why so many people who leave Mormonism become atheist or agnostic. All that cognitive dissonance really messes with your mind.
 
And why is this a problem? Your post highlights the one of the main theological differences between Christianity and Mormonism. Christians belive that God created everything ex nihlio - the universe, angels (including Lucifer), humans, etc. The only person who is not created is God Himself. As such, we can correctly call God the Creator.

Heavenly Father, on the other hand, didn’t actually create anything. He is simply an organizer of matter, light and truth that already existed, as you stated. Heavenly Father just organized existing matter, light, etc into the universe. He didn’t actually create anything. He just assembles. John 1:1-3 cannot be used to support the Mormon position at all as John tells us that “**all things **were made by Him” (emphasis mine).

When Mormons use the term God, it has an entirely different meaning than what Christians (or any of the Abrahamic religions) mean. As I said in a post much earlier in this thread, Christians and Mormons speak different languages.
Theological differences doesn’t mean you are right and we are wrong. You said a lot of things but backed up none of it with Christian scripture. Yes, all things were made by him which were made.(John 1:3)
 
mtolympus is ignoring the fact that the scriptures he/she relies upon were written by the RCC years after our Lord’s death and resurrection.

it seems perfectly reasonable to conclude that the best understandings of scripture are those held by the people who wrote scripture.

we do have factual evidence that relying solely on scripture results in division, currently division to the tune of about 40,000 different christian sects who all claim their teachings originate from their interpretations of scripture.

ergo, i highly recommend that no one fall for the canard of basing their beliefs solely on their own interpretation of scripture.
 
Theological differences doesn’t mean you are right and we are wrong. You said a lot of things but backed up none of it with Christian scripture. Yes, all things were made by him which were made.(John 1:3)
You stated that matter, light and intelligence are eternal (without the proper references to D&C I might add. I already know this as I was Mormon for 35+ years so I don’t require the citations). So what exactly did Heavenly Father make?

I did provide a proper reference to my statement that God created everything. John 1:1-3

Like I said, you and I are speaking different languages we talk about God and interpret the Bible.
 
mtolympus is ignoring the fact that the scriptures he/she relies upon were written by the RCC years after our Lord’s death and resurrection.

it seems perfectly reasonable to conclude that the best understandings of scripture are those held by the people who wrote scripture.

we do have factual evidence that relying solely on scripture results in division, currently division to the tune of about 40,000 different christian sects who all claim their teachings originate from their interpretations of scripture.

ergo, i highly recommend that no one fall for the canard of basing their beliefs solely on their own interpretation of scripture.
Pretty much. The LDS church likes to pick and choose which verses in the Bible it uses to support its positions and ignores the rest. They get away with this because, according to them, the Christian Bible was complied by a bunch of apostates so they can’t really rely on the truthfulness of the Bible anyway. Mormons have to rely on the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenents, Pearl of Great Price, the “Joseph Smith Translation” of the Bible and the other teachings of Joseph Smith for the proper interpretation of the Bible. In all my time as a Mormon, I was never encouraged to read the Bible. The focus is always on reading the Book of Mormon. My last stake president told us that we needed to read the BOM for 30 minutes every day. Mormon general authorities are always talking about reading the BOM. There is little time to actually read the Bible after reading the BOM all day.
 
Pretty much. The LDS church likes to pick and choose which verses in the Bible it uses to support its positions and ignores the rest. They get away with this because, according to them, the Christian Bible was complied by a bunch of apostates so they can’t really rely on the truthfulness of the Bible anyway. Mormons have to rely on the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenents, Pearl of Great Price, the “Joseph Smith Translation” of the Bible and the other teachings of Joseph Smith for the proper interpretation of the Bible. In all my time as a Mormon, I was never encouraged to read the Bible. The focus is always on reading the Book of Mormon. My last stake president told us that we needed to read the BOM for 30 minutes every day. Mormon general authorities are always talking about reading the BOM. There is little time to actually read the Bible after reading the BOM all day.
People say this all the time, yet I am the one that uses the Christian scriptures to back up what I say. I don’t pick and chose, I try to back up everything I say…
 
LDS believe there are some things that were not made, but are eternal. Light and Truth, which is the Glory of God, and the elements are eternal.
Col 1:16-17
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Nothing existed before God.
 
People say this all the time, yet I am the one that uses the Christian scriptures to back up what I say. I don’t pick and chose, I try to back up everything I say…
No, you quote bible verses as support for LDS positions when they clearly don’t do that. You fail to mention that those are the verses Joseph and other church leaders use as a foundation to teach non-biblical/Christian doctrine. Show me a bible verse that states God was a mortal or that Satan and Christ are brothers.
 
People say this all the time, yet I am the one that uses the Christian scriptures to back up what I say. I don’t pick and chose, I try to back up everything I say…
So please back up what you said about matter, intelligence and light being eternal. I know it is written in the Doctrine & Covenents, but what about the Bible? Also, what exactly did Heavenly Father create since matter, intelligence and light are eternal and he didn’t create those?
 
“For Thou created heaven and earth, not out of Yourself, for then they would be equal to Your Only-begotten, and thereby even to You; and in no wise would it be right that anything should be equal to You which was not of You. And anything else except You there was not whence You might create these things, O God, One Trinity, and Trine Unity; and, therefore, out of nothing You created heaven and earth…”

St. Augustine (no doubt, another proxy-baptized Mormon) explaining why the Mormon’s have the wrong idea about creation.
 
And John could also be referencing Jesus visiting the people that Brigham Young said live on the moon and the sun! :).
Say such things and have over 50 wives and they’ll name a university after you. :whacky:
 
The problem is it doesn’t say “including Lucifer.”

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1-3)

LDS believe there are some things that were not made, but are eternal. Light and Truth, which is the Glory of God, and the elements are eternal.

“The Glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words light and truth. Light and truth forsake the evil one.” (D&C 93:36-37)
Hey, if we’re quoting John 1, Let’s use Joseph’s Inspired Version:"In the beginning was the
gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made."
 
Jesus is the God of the Old Testament:

“By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt.” (Heb. 11:24-26)
So Jesus encouraged Joshua to slaughter the people of Jericho and continue to slaughter the Canaanites! Also, Jesus had a physical (wrestling) confrontation with Jacob! Jesus was not a warrior such as Yahweh. How can these two types of personalities be united?
 
Paul tells us that there is one God, and that there is one mediator between God and men. This mediator is Jesus Christ: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:5-6)

In all of God’s dealings with the human family, Jesus the Son represents his Father. Jesus often speaks in first person on behalf of the Father. He explained to his disciples that when he spoke to them he did not speak of himself, but words of the Father: “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)

Jesus told the disciples how he was one with the Father and said that they also would someday understand this kind of unity. (John 14:20) Jesus then repeated that he speaks the words of the Father: **“And the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.” (John 14:24) **

With this understanding, the testimony of John the Baptist may enlighten us concerning the God of the Old Testament:

"John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:15-18)

John the Baptist was testifying of Jesus, who would come after him, when he said that “he was before me.” John was referring to Old Testament times, when “the law was given by Moses,” and told them that it was Jesus Christ who had appeared to the prophets. For they had never seen God (the Father) at any time but bore record of the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father. Jesus Christ had declared the Father unto them.
You are reading these passages as though Jesus is not God.

The Son proceeds from the Father. If you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father, not because Jesus is an emissary, because Jesus is God. The Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. One God, not three Gods with an erroneous idea that is Jesus a filtering go between. Delegated a task because the Father is too busy or can’t be bothered.

Jesus is who has reconciled us to the Father, the whole reason that the baptized can call the Father, Father. This does not remove the Father as “God of this world”, as you put it. There is One God, not three, or three thousand or unnumbered. ONE.
 
No, you quote bible verses as support for LDS positions when they clearly don’t do that. You fail to mention that those are the verses Joseph and other church leaders use as a foundation to teach non-biblical/Christian doctrine. Show me a bible verse that states God was a mortal or that Satan and Christ are brothers.
Members of the LDS church cannot show us Bible verses that state that God was once mortal or that Lucifer and Jesus Christ are brothers. I guess all those verses were removed by all the apostates who destroyed God’s true church (aka, Early Church Fathers).
 
Of course there were many other things that Jesus did. This could be talking about the Book of Mormon for all we know!

The point is John did not say that the Word created Lucifer. John said "without him (the Word) was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)
You have just demonstrated one of the problem issues with mormonism.

Whenever someone has proven mormonism wrong, as has been done several times on this thread, you want to hide behind the it doesn’t specifically state that “defense”. However, when a mormon (i.e. you) tries to prove a point, literal statements are never proven or provided. It is all subjective and conjecture.

Case in point. You talk about Lucifer not being specifically mentioned being “created”, and I showed you where it didn’t have to. You are looking for something specific and literal, which you will not find.

The Bible says, “Thou shall not kill”. It doesn’t say Thou shall not kill using a knife, gun, bomb, etc, so, as you can see, your point fails.

Good try though.
 
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