Are Mormons Christians

[Brandon_Cal]

Yeah, well, I didn’t view much of what she said as representative of most LDS members. I understand how she came to the conclusion though. If you expect Christians to include anyone who claims to be Christian, regardless of how far removed they are from Christianity, as Christians, why not just include anyone who has a favorable view of Jesus? What is the distinguishing thing, to a Mormon that makes a Christian, Christian?

For Catholics it is baptism, as we are baptized into Christ. So while a favorable view is, well, favorable, one is not a Christian without a Christian baptism. Very rooted in what Jesus taught about baptism.

Well understood, and I certainly see the utility of having a uniform definition. Unfortunately definitions are descriptive rather than prescriptive, and since different groups of people naturally will use words slightly differently than others many words have multiple definitions.

I think there can be a strong argument to be made (just as you have) that a valid baptism defines one’s Christian-ness, but then we’ve just moved the problem of definition a step back. Who defines what constitutes a valid baptism? I’ve known some Orthodox who insist that the only real Christians are Orthodox Christians. I also know some “Bible Believing Christians” who are unbaptized, and would never in a million years define Christianity by baptism.

So what is the rest of the world to do when trying to use the word in mixed company? I say, we know our audience, and the context in which we’re speaking.

If I’m speaking about Christianity to a diverse group, including many individuals who aren’t even self-professed Christians, and the context is one of academics, say, then I’m going to use a rather broad definition of Christianity (much as the encyclopedia does). If I’m speaking at a Catholic Church to a Catholic audience, I’m going to use the Church’s definition.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

There is a standard for sure, and the standard CHRISTIANS go by is the Bible. Mormons reject the Bible, what
it says, except for parts which can be taken out of context or are rewritten by Joseph Smith in his JST version.
Besides the JST version, which even Mormons don’t use much as well as even the Book of Mormon, Mormons
go more by the Pearl of Great Price, false prophets, and Doctrine & Covenants. Bible Bad in Mormonism.

Ah! But many Mormons believe that they are following the Bible. And there are many Fundamentalist “Christians” who truly do believe that they’re also following the Bible when they say that Catholicism is not Christianity.

You’re going to have to do more than just categorically state that your definition follows the Bible.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

BrandonCal. So you believe in a man that said God told him all other religions had it wrong? So God let His only Son fail and deceive at the time, thousands, tens of thousands of people with false doctrine? Why would God let this happen? Your prophets claim that an apostacy occurred after the last apostle died but yet your prophets say that John still walks the earth. How did an apostacy happen then? These are some of the things that make your church a non Christian church. Why would you limit God or Jesus? As many others here do, Ill pray for your soul friend and all those that are lost or deceived.

This post is entirely irrelevant to what I’m saying concerning the multifaceted definition of words used among a group of people who share the same language. What I “believe” about the truth claims of Mormonism is also irrelevant.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

In my humble opinion, anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ is, by definition, a Christian. There is no right and wrong way to follow Jesus.

That’s all.

Christianity is defined (as far as I’m concerned) as a follower of Christ; that’s where the word “Christian” comes from. Their formal name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It sounds like they follow Jesus to me.

Now here’s a sentiment I often hear fellow Mormons espouse that I cannot stand (no offense to you personally).

“Follows the teachings of Jesus Christ” is a useless definition of Christianity, for even the Muslims (who don’t care to be called “Christians”) believe that they are following Jesus Christ! The Baha’is also believe they are following Jesus Christ, but no one, not even the Bahai’is would count the Baha’is as Christians.

Your second point is another thing I hear many Mormons say, which I humbly believe is logically fallacious and a good example of begging the question. Ideally a Mormon points out that Jesus Christ’s name is in the name of the LDS Church as evidence that the LDS Church is a Christian church, but since the adherents of religions self-name their religion, this amounts to nothing more than “We’re Christian because we say we’re Christian”.

Just to make sure that I’m well understood here, I’m not really advocating for the Mormons to be included among “Christians” in any theological sense. I believe it’s readily clear that Mormonism is dramatically different from the theology professed by the vast majority of those who call themselves “Christian”, and Mormonism only, at best, has a tenuous historical connection to Christianity (only insofar as the first Mormons themselves were Christians, and Mormonism arose in a Christian part of the world, shares some scriptures, holidays, traditions, etc. with Christianity).

In an anthropological sense, Mormonism is way too small to really consider it its own religious tradition, and given that Mormons consider themselves part of the Christian milieu, they should at least carry the term in a very loose fashion. As I alluded to in one of my previous posts, Mormons calling themselves “Christian” is not unlike the Ahmadiyya (or maybe even the Nation of Islam) considering themselves “Muslim” while many in the more traditional sects of Islam consider them entirely non-Muslim.

On another note, I think we may just be in that transitional period when a relatively young religion is searching hard to define itself. In a thousand years Mormonism may very well have moved into its own domain as a fully separate world religion much like Christianity did when it was still straddling the fence of “Judaism” and “not Judaism”.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Ah! But many Mormons believe that they are following the Bible. And there are many Fundamentalist “Christians” who truly do believe that they’re also following the Bible when they say that Catholicism is not Christianity.

You’re going to have to do more than just categorically state that your definition follows the Bible.

Oy, but there are points which ALL Christians agree on from the Bible that Mormons don’t.

Thus says the LORD, Israel’s King and redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; there is no God but me.
-Isaiah 44:6

I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me. It is I who arm you, though you know me not,
so that toward the rising and the setting of the sun men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other;
-Isaiah 45:5-6

For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not creating it to be a waste, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, there is no other.
-Isaiah 45:18

Come here and declare in counsel together: Who announced this from the beginning and foretold it from of old? Was it not I, the LORD, besides whom there is no other God? There is no just and saving God but me.
Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth, for I am God; there is no other!
-Isaiah 45:21-22

I am the LORD, your God, since the land of Egypt; You know no God besides me, and there is no savior but me.
Hosea 13:4

(Jesus praying to the Father) “Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
-John 17:3 Notice how Jesus did not say that ONLY the Father is
God, but that the Father is the only God , Jesus never
denying in being that same God.
For I am the Lord, I change not;
Malachi 3:6aIn other words, GOD WAS NEVER A MAN PRIOR TO BEING GOD.

Joseph Smith was more
than HAPPY to refute every
one of those fundamental
passages above.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Oy, but there are points which ALL Christians agree on from the Bible that Mormons don’t.

And now you’re begging the question!

The very first post in this thread is “Are Mormon Christians?”. You don’t get to answer that question by saying “No, Mormons are not Christian because Mormons do not accept things that all real Christians believe.” Implicit in your premise is the very conclusion you’re trying to derive!

You say all Christians believe in the Trinity. If I show you a Christian that doesn’t, you’ll just say that it’s proof that the person isn’t a Christian! That’s circular reasoning buddy.

 

[TheIrishman]

To answer the OP’s question as simply as i can…

no.

 

[kimg901]

This post is entirely irrelevant to what I’m saying concerning the multifaceted definition of words used among a group of people who share the same language. What I “believe” about the truth claims of Mormonism is also irrelevant.

Its actually ALL relevant. If you believe these things then in my opinion, you and the rest of the lds are not Christians. how can you follow what a man says about God? A man, if indeed was a true prophet of God, would have had his revelations come true. If they were in fact from God. So ask yourself, are you really a follower of Christ Jesus from the days of old or follower of a Christ and God that could not figure it out the first time?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

And now you’re begging the question!

The very first post in this thread is “Are Mormon Christians?”. You don’t get to answer that question by saying “No, Mormons are not Christian because Mormons do not accept things that all real Christians believe.” Implicit in your premise is the very conclusion you’re trying to derive!

You say all Christians believe in the Trinity. If I show you a Christian that doesn’t, you’ll just say that it’s proof that the person isn’t a Christian! That’s circular reasoning buddy.

It isn’t circular reasoning, it’s exact definition.

Christianity is a monotheistic religion that believes in the God of the Bible,
the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God who is
by very nature Eternal and Creator of all. Mormonism says, “Well that’s
your definition,” but no! It’s THE definition.

A platypus is not a duck, though both have bills, webbed feet, and even lay eggs.

The reasoning is this: “Here is what a Christian is”, “Mormonism isn’t any-
thing that makes a Christian a Christian”, ergo “Mormonism isn’t Christian.”

I will lay out the tenets that make a person what Christian is again:

• Christians believe in the Trinity, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe in ONE GOD, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that the Fall was bad, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that the Bible is inerrant, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe Christ suffered for sin on the Cross, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that the Cross is a wonderful sign of faith, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that Jesus is our only High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that, although people can have the gift of prophecy, there will be no more new prophets, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe that wine and unleavened bread should be the representing elements of Jesus’ body and blood, Mormons do not.
• Christians believe not only that there is only ONE GOD, but that God has always been God, even that Jesus Christ
  is the same yesterday and today and forever, and that God is God from Eternity unto Eternity, Mormons do not.

Mormons don’t just disbelieve the Bible or the Trinity, but as I’ve just shown,
there are tons of things, even more than I listed above, that Mormons reject.

Wanna preserve Joseph Smith as a prophet? Fine. Want to keep the BoM, PGP, and
D&C (as well as the JST)? Okay. Need your Temples, Modern Prophets, etc? Be my
guest, but don’t in the next breath identify yourself as a Christian. Ducks are Ducks,
Platypi are Platypi, one is a bird, the other is a mammal, no matter how much one
argues and disputes, they are not the same, neither is the same Christianity and
Mormonism.

 

[eddie_too]

mormons believe they need joseph smith to know the true God. knowing only Jesus is not enough.

christians believe they need only Jesus Christ, no one else, to know the true God.

is that a sound way to explain why many traditional christians do not consider the lds christian?

christians need no one but Jesus to be saved.

mormons need joseph smith to be saved. according to mormons, without joseph smith the truth is lost.

according to christians, Jesus Christ is the truth and no other human being is needed to know the truth.

it is true the lds profess salvation throught the saving acts of Jesus, but those acts are made present through joseph smith. without joseph smith, the real Jesus cannot be known.

for me, the need for someone besides Jesus is the real difference between christians and non-christians.

the bahai, the muslims and the mormons all allude to the glory of Christ, but they require other men for that glory to be real and available.

christians require no one but Jesus for His glory to be real and available.

 

[Stephen168]

You say all Christians believe in the Trinity. If I show you a Christian that doesn’t, you’ll just say that it’s proof that the person isn’t a Christian! That’s circular reasoning buddy.

Then you would believe all definitions are reasoned. I don’t agree. We don’t reason the definition of chair; it is what it is.

Christ told us to baptize in the name (single) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost (the ONE triune God) which is the intent of Christian baptism. The Mormon Church does not have the same intent when they baptize; their intend to baptize in the name of three separate beings. Therefore Mormon baptism is not a Christian baptism. This is all the Catholic Church has to say on the subject.
But we can reason for ourselves: A Christian must be baptized, Mormon baptism is not Christian, therefore, Mormons are not Christian. I think the same reason would be applied to all groups who reject the trinity.

 

[twopekinguys]

To answer the OP’s question as simply as i can…

no.

LOL, that made me chuckle.

 

[TexanKnight]

And now you’re begging the question!

The very first post in this thread is “Are Mormon Christians?”. You don’t get to answer that question by saying “No, Mormons are not Christian because Mormons do not accept things that all real Christians believe.” Implicit in your premise is the very conclusion you’re trying to derive!

You say all Christians believe in the Trinity. If I show you a Christian that doesn’t, you’ll just say that it’s proof that the person isn’t a Christian! That’s circular reasoning buddy.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

Christians believe in Christ as God. The God who the Bible says is unchanging.

Mormons believe in a morphed Jesus who is the son of a God who changes…who used to be a sinful man, who was born when God had actual sexual relations with Mary, and who is the brother of Satan.

No…they not Christian

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

You are barking up the wrong tree.

Christians believe in Christ as God. The God who the Bible says is unchanging.

Mormons believe in a morphed Jesus who is the son of a God who changes…who used to be a sinful man, who was born when God had actual sexual relations with Mary, and who is the brother of Satan.

No…they not Christian

HA! There’s one episode of *Heart of the Matter *where one woman called in (it’s a call-in show) and coined the word “Morphmonism”!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well understood, and I certainly see the utility of having a uniform definition. Unfortunately definitions are descriptive rather than prescriptive, and since different groups of people naturally will use words slightly differently than others many words have multiple definitions.

I think there can be a strong argument to be made (just as you have) that a valid baptism defines one’s Christian-ness, but then we’ve just moved the problem of definition a step back. Who defines what constitutes a valid baptism? I’ve known some Orthodox who insist that the only real Christians are Orthodox Christians. I also know some “Bible Believing Christians” who are unbaptized, and would never in a million years define Christianity by baptism.

So what is the rest of the world to do when trying to use the word in mixed company? I say, we know our audience, and the context in which we’re speaking.

If I’m speaking about Christianity to a diverse group, including many individuals who aren’t even self-professed Christians, and the context is one of academics, say, then I’m going to use a rather broad definition of Christianity (much as the encyclopedia does). If I’m speaking at a Catholic Church to a Catholic audience, I’m going to use the Church’s definition.

Relativism isn’t a catholic trait. Neither is pragmatism.

But yes, definitions are important, and Mormonism has redefined every Christian word and phrase to mean something else. Starting with the word “God”. Using the same words doesn’t fool us! Won’t make us relativistic or pragmatic, either.

 

[Stephen168]

I think there can be a strong argument to be made (just as you have) that a valid baptism defines one’s Christian-ness, but then we’ve just moved the problem of definition a step back. Who defines what constitutes a valid baptism?

The Catholic Church/Orthodoxy we are the group called Christian from the first century.

I’ve known some Orthodox who insist that the only real Christians are Orthodox Christians.

But have you known Orthodox Churches that reject all baptisms outside their own. Here is a quote from a Greek Orthodox Church:

Question: I am Greek Orthodox and my fiancee is not, however he was baptized in a non-denominational church…does this qualify as a baptism that is recognized by the Orthodox Church? I cannot seem to find a straight answer on this topic. Thank you in advance for your time and consideration!

Answer: There are literally thousands of faith groups in existence that refer to themselves as Christian, and this list continues to grow. It is thus almost impossible to keep a comprehensive list of all faith groups whose baptism is acceptable. However, the following guidelines are generally helpful determine if the non-Orthodox partner’s baptism is acceptable:
The non-Orthodox partner must have been baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity and in water.

I also know some “Bible Believing Christians” who are unbaptized, and would never in a million years define Christianity by baptism.

I have NEVER met a “bible believing Christian” who was not baptizes and refused to do so as Christ required it. When they think they are “saved” they get baptized.

 

[Cathoholic]

Are Mormons Christians?

Here is how the Church sees it.

(Re-defining terms isn’t going to morph someone who isn’t a Christian into a Christian either as the Church defines these terms with great care. That’s because Jesus will be with His Church ALWAYS. Apostasy? There has always been apostasy. Complete apostasy? Not a chance. Protection of the official Catholic teachings? Yep.)

To be a Christian, one must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (cf. Acts 8:37; 1 Jn 2:23). Belief in the true Incarnation of the Son of God is the distinctive sign of Christian faith. The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.

I believe in ONE God the Father the Almighty creator of Heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ His only Son. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary . . . .

CCC 454 The title “Son of God” signifies the unique and eternal relationship of Jesus Christ to God his Father: he is the only Son of the Father (cf. Jn 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18); he is God himself (cf. Jn 1:1). To be a Christian, one must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (cf. Acts 8:37; 1 Jn 2:23).

CCC 463 Belief in the true Incarnation of the Son of God is the distinctive sign of Christian faith: "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God."85 Such is the joyous conviction of the Church from her beginning whenever she sings “the mystery of our religion”: "He was manifested in the flesh."86

III. TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN

CCC 464 The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.
During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.

One God. Three Divine Persons. This is not contrary to reason but it is ABOVE reason. We only know about this, because God has revealed this Trinitarian truth to us.

If you are a Mormon and believe in ONE (and ONLY ONE) God, and Jesus is “one in being with the Father, Light from Light, true God from True God, begotten not made . . . and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man”

. . . then you should be able to look at the above points and answer the question for yourself: Am I a Christian?

 

[mangy_dog]

Are Mormons Christians? If not then why do they believe in Christ?

They don’t believe in Christ as we believe in Christ.

To us Jesus Christ is God-the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. They will talk circles around this to the point of admitting that there are 3 Gods.

 

[gazelam]

They don’t believe in Christ as we believe in Christ.

To us Jesus Christ is God-the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. They will talk circles around this to the point of admitting that there are 3 Gods.

Having had mange on my LDS mission in Argentina, I know that “mangy dog” translates to “perro sarnoso” in Spanish. Someone else is posting today in this forum as “perro sarnoso”. Is there any tie between the two of you? Seems more than a mere coincidence… Worst case it’s good clean fun.

 

[dtaloni1]

This is a remarkably heated debate over a small, pedantic piece of semantics. It’s this type of in-group/out-group partitioning and True Scotsman-ship that turns off a lot of non-religious types. Fundamentally, who cares what someone wants to call themselves? Our salvation isn’t dependent on a whim of language. Whether we explicitly define ourselves or someone else as Christian is not an outer manifestation of inner holiness or lack thereof. God (in all likelihood) isn’t going to judge us based on a title.

FWIW, I think Catholics and Mormons, especially in the United States, are natural cultural allies against a secular cultural hegemony. Bickering like children over whether the other is “Christian enough” to be in our club is highly counterproductive. Take care of your own house and let God take care of the rest.