Are Mormons Christians

[mtolympus]

Neither does it say that they are one by reason of purpose only. That they are one in being or substance is found materially in the Scriptures and explained formally in doctrine, as demonstrated in the creeds.

But you are giving a false impression of the Mormon position. You do not believe in one eternal God. Your entire theology of progression rejects that notion outright. You believe in many Gods and even believe that the God you worship has a God above him. Please. The Mormon faith is polytheistic at its core.

SteveVH It is quite obvious that Latter-day Saints believe in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end (when properly understood and interpreted according to the faith from which the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants came).

2 Nephi 31:21
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:44
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:7
And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

 

[eddie_too]

mtolympus,

what has the current prophet declared about the Trinity?

and, if he has not addressed the topic, who was the last prophet to do so and when and what did he say?

 

[mtolympus]

Christian (when properly understood and interpreted according to the faith from which the Bible came).

**SteveVH Thank you for your answer to the question I have been asking:

I would like know from a Catholic if these scriptures from the Bible would be placed under “Mormon Doctrine” or “Christian Doctrine”?**.

1. “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
   But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” Apostle Paul (Rom. 6:14-18)
2. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Heb. 5:8-9)
3. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus Christ (Matt. 7:21)

 

[TexanKnight]

**SteveVH Thank you for your answer to the question I have been asking:

I would like know from a Catholic if these scriptures from the Bible would be placed under “Mormon Doctrine” or “Christian Doctrine”?**.

1. “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
   But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” Apostle Paul (Rom. 6:14-18)
2. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Heb. 5:8-9)
3. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus Christ (Matt. 7:21)

you keep on repeating the same Biblical Scriptures as if they mean anything coming from someone who does not believe in the true God or Jesus, but in the Smithian Morphonism

 

[taylorf]

**SteveVH Thank you for your answer to the question I have been asking:

I would like know from a Catholic if these scriptures from the Bible would be placed under “Mormon Doctrine” or “Christian Doctrine”?**.

1. “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
   But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” Apostle Paul (Rom. 6:14-18)
2. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Heb. 5:8-9)
3. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus Christ (Matt. 7:21)

I’m not Catholic, but I don’t care. It can be both Christian and Mormon based on the terms used but different when you look at the definitions/interpretation being applied, which is what you keep failing to understand! Here is an article on Catholic Answers that addresses the topic better than I can.

 

[twopekinguys]

**SteveVH Thank you for your answer to the question I have been asking:

I would like know from a Catholic if these scriptures from the Bible would be placed under “Mormon Doctrine” or “Christian Doctrine”?**.

1. “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
   But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” Apostle Paul (Rom. 6:14-18)
2. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Heb. 5:8-9)
3. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus Christ (Matt. 7:21)

Could you address my post back on page 15 that you seem to have missed/ignored?

#217

 

[mtolympus]

you keep on repeating the same Biblical Scriptures as if they mean anything coming from someone who does not believe in the true God or Jesus, but in the Smithian Morphonism

These Biblical Scriptures came from Jesus and Paul.

 

[eddie_too]

mtolympus,

1. how would a non-mormon know it those scripture quotations were mormon doctrine?
2. christian doctrine is not simply derived from a biblical quotation. consequently, i would say that none of those quotations are christian doctrine.

 

[Porknpie]

Actually, you are not. You are Smithians. You believe in a Christ invented and morphed by js.

Interesting that Mormons pick and choose bible verses that are perceived to fit their theology but reject other ones that do not. No matter where the apostles went, East, North, South or West, all the apostles taught the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The Bread AND Wine, are changed into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ tells us the truth, that he will be with us always, until the end of the world.

John 6:53

53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

So the Great Apostasy must have occurred somewhere between the mouth of Jesus and the ears of the apostles. Either Jesus was a horrible teacher or everyone of the apostles did not understand him. That’s the only way that it could have happened.

Also are the words of St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was a disciple of St John the Apostle … taught by Jesus himself. An example of how the teaching by Christ to the apostles of the Eucharist was then taught to the successors.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

Study John 6 … and it says the same.

No apostasy

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH It is quite obvious that Latter-day Saints believe in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end (when properly understood and interpreted according to the faith from which the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants came).

2 Nephi 31:21
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:44
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:7
And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

That is all well and fine, but let me ask you a very simple question. Do you believe that Heavenly Father, whom you worship, also has a God to which he prays whom he worships?

 

[SteveVH]

**SteveVH Thank you for your answer to the question I have been asking:

I would like know from a Catholic if these scriptures from the Bible would be placed under “Mormon Doctrine” or “Christian Doctrine”?**.

1. “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
   Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
   But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” Apostle Paul (Rom. 6:14-18)
2. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” (Heb. 5:8-9)
3. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus Christ (Matt. 7:21)

We accept anything and everything written in the Bible as the inerrant word of God. The principles present in these verses would certainly be incorporated in Catholic doctrine.

 

[iepuras]

SteveVH It is quite obvious that Latter-day Saints believe in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end (when properly understood and interpreted according to the faith from which the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants came).

2 Nephi 31:21
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:44
Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:7
And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

You unknowingly pointed out one of the key distinctions between the understanding of God in Mormonism and the Holy Trinity of Christianity. You pointed out that the One Eternal God of Mormonism does not have an end. Fine. But does he have a beginning?

Given the fact that Mormons believe that Heavenly Father was once a mortal man, the Mormon God the Father had a beginning. He was mortal and somehow figured out how to evolve into a god. He may have always existed according to the Mormon belief that matter and intelligence have always existed but he was not always a god. His godhood had a beginning. Given the Mormon belief of generations of gods, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost had a beginning as part of the Mormon godhead. They were not always part of the One Eternal God. These beliefs are problematic because science has shown us that the universe (and all the matter in it) is not eternal. It had a definite beginning (Big Bang).

The Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) have always existed. God exists outside time and space and, therefore, has no begining or end. God also created everything out of nothing. God created the universe and caused the Big Bang.

This illustrates my previous post where I stated that Mormons and Christians use the same words but speak a completely different language. The Mormon beliefs about who God is are entirely different from Christian beliefs about God. We worship different Gods. Historically, Mormon leaders made it clear that Mormons are not Christian. Only in the last 20 years or so have Mormons claimed to also be Christian.

 

[mtolympus]

mtolympus,

1. how would a non-mormon know it those scripture quotations were mormon doctrine?
2. christian doctrine is not simply derived from a biblical quotation. consequently, i would say that none of those quotations are christian doctrine.

That is the whole point of the apostasy. Christian (Catholic) doctrine comes from the creeds regardless of what Jesus and the apostles taught as recorded in the Bible.

 

[taylorf]

That is the whole point of the apostasy. Christian (Catholic) doctrine comes from the creeds regardless of what Jesus and the apostles taught as recorded in the Bible.

:banghead:

You’re totally wrong with that, but…whatever. So can you answer twopekinguys question a couple pages back…what was the date of the apostasy? What real evidence (please don’t cite more Bible scripture…please don’t) do you have?

 

[Porknpie]

That is the whole point of the apostasy. Christian (Catholic) doctrine comes from the creeds regardless of what Jesus and the apostles taught as recorded in the Bible.

No. The creeds, doctrine and the bible have the same source: the apostolic faith… They are consistent with each other. All were put to writ by the Catholic Church.

 

[taylorf]

Historically, Mormon leaders made it clear that Mormons are not Christian. Only in the last 20 years or so have Mormons claimed to also be Christian.

This was actually a significant reason for the downfall of my testimony. I have absolutely no respect for this religion because it doesn’t take a position and stick with it. I don’t know if there is a more image conscience church in the world than the LDS church. And now it’s desperately trying to appear more mainstream Christian. I just don’t get it…well, I do but I don’t think people are going to fall for it.

 

[mtolympus]

Could you address my post back on page 15 that you seem to have missed/ignored?#217

Yes, I saw your post. Glad to see you have a sense of humor.

I don’t understand the facination with finding a certain day for the apostacy. In my opinion, it occurred over a period of about 250 years, beginning before the apostles were killed and finalized at the nicene conference in 325 AD when bishops were required to sign the nicene creed or be banished from their cities. I believe there were many Christian Bishops that held to the truth but they were the leaders of local churches. Differences in doctrine developed over time until Contantine called the Bishops together for the council at Nicea to bring unity to the Church.

In one of his final epistles Paul wrote to Timothy:

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.” (2 Tim. 4:3-4)

Sorry, no date was given.

As for John, if he is still living. I don’t see that this would have any effect on the apostacy of the Church. Unless he is seceretly advising the Pope.

 

[taylorf]

Yes, I saw your post. Glad to see you have a sense of humor.

I don’t understand the facination with finding a certain day for the apostacy. In my opinion, it occurred over a period of about 250 years, beginning before the apostles were killed and finalized at the nicene conference in 325 AD when bishops were required to sign the nicene creed or be banished from their cities. I believe there were many Christian Bishops that held to the truth but they were the leaders of local churches. Differences in doctrine developed over time until Contantine called the Bishops together for the council at Nicea to bring unity to the Church.

In one of his final epistles Paul wrote to Timothy:

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.” (2 Tim. 4:3-4)

Sorry, no date was given.

As for John, if he is still living. I don’t see that this would have any effect on the apostacy of the Church. Unless he is seceretly advising the Pope.

So what actual evidence do you base your belief on that bishops held on to the truth? What writings or historical evidence is there that these bishops followed the true faith? Have you found tithing receipts or temple recommends from the 2nd century?

 

[mtolympus]

This was actually a significant reason for the downfall of my testimony. I have absolutely no respect for this religion because it doesn’t take a position and stick with it. I don’t know if there is a more image conscience church in the world than the LDS church. And now it’s desperately trying to appear more mainstream Christian. I just don’t get it…well, I do but I don’t think people are going to fall for it.

I have been around much longer than 20 years and I have always considered myself a Christian. When I was in the army in the 1960s we would discribe ourselves as Christian but not Protestant. It was in the 1980s that the “different Jesus,” “Mormons are not Christian” public movement became wide spread. The LDS position on this has never changed. We have always considered our selves Christians. We are glad to make it clear, however, that we are not trinitarians and don’t accept the God as discribed in the Nicene Creed.

 

[zaffiroborant]

That is the whole point of the apostasy. Christian (Catholic) doctrine comes from the creeds regardless of what Jesus and the apostles taught as recorded in the Bible.

No doctrine does not come from the creeds, it comes from what Jesus and the apostles taught both in the bible and handed down from person to person. The Holy Spirit guiding men and guarding the faith.

LDS on the other hand get the majority of their doctrine from the works of Joseph Smith, what little they get from the bible is present in other Christian religions.