Are Mormons Christians

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mtolympus said:
My post was to show what our scriptures say about God and what we believe about God. I am not trying to prove anything to anyone.
OK, I guess. Seems just as important to prove the authority, what good is it to quote a text that has not proven its authority?

Thank you! Sorry I can only answer one of your Bible scriptures since there seems to be so many posters who feel I am ignoring them.;)Well, thank you for responding at all. Cannot help but feel you cherry picked, though. I’ll get over it.

The verses in Deuteronomy 13 teach us that the followers of a true prophet will be taught to keep God’s commandments and to obey his voice:

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.” (Deut. 13:1-3)
Hmm, which sign or wonder did he perform that came to pass? So, why is it he is considered a prophet? The visions? How were those verified, you’d know why I ask that if you had read my other scripture references, although the one you picked implies a verification. I assume you’ve read the Mormon histories enough to know that none of the “witnesses” actually witnessed anything more than a daydream, which I think easily explains why 9 of 11 died (naturally) in apostasy from the newly formed Mormons. How many early Christians died for the faith? 11 of 12 Apostles (including Judas, which is controversial, sorry), Paul, Stephen, those killed by the Roman Empire, etc. Yet, those that had been given “divine” witness to Mormonism could not even hold on to their natural death.

Joseph Smith never taught that we should follow after other gods. All Latter-day Saint prophets have taught that we should follow the one true God and keep his commandments. This true God was identified to the children of Israel as the Lord your God which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage. (Deut. 13:5) The same God is described in The Book of Mormon: And he loveth those who will have him to be their God… he did bring them out of the land of Egypt. (1 Nephi 17:40) Latter-day Saints are taught by their prophets to serve God and do his will. They are taught to live by the same Ten Commandments that the Lord gave unto Moses. The fourth verse of Deuteronomy 13 confirms that followers who obey the commandments are the good fruits of a true prophet:
Doesn’t say anything about that defining a “good fruit” of a prophet. BOM was written after the Bible, why should we believe is not simply plagiarism of the Bible as needed to make a good story? Why do we need this book if it says the “same” thing as the Bible? You may be using the quotes to “prove” your beliefs, I am asking you to provide the proof/evidence on why I should give the BOM any credibility, which will then provide credibility to your beliefs (a lot of good people in the world, don’t make them Right).

Which God is that? The triune God or some henotheistic version? Do you have more than Joseph Smith’s word on that? Pretty convenient for him that you cannot check him on it, not even an original manuscript of the BOM. So, how do you know? And having read my other scriptural references would clue you into what I think about the “Burning in the Bosom”, feelings are not good enough. Do you have other verification?

Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. (Deut. 13:4) This is Truth!

No. We don’t try to prove anything to anyone. Really? Why are you here? You weigh in on your beliefs, but do not try to “prove” anything?
The Bible dosen’t tell us to have faith in the evidence. The Bible tells us that faith is the evidence of unseen truth.
. The Bible does tell us to check, to test, to verify that what is offered is of God - if you’d read my other references. How do we do that, by evaluating them against the deposit of faith. Joseph Smith fails on this count (I.e., he asks you to discount that which disagrees with him, how is that not teaching a different god(s)), that you do have to prove to the contrary. No circular logic of using BOM, that is Joseph Smith’s book and is inadmissible until it can be verified (which is part of what I am asking you to do).

Now faith is… the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)
Sure, when you, having used all of your God given abilities, need to. Like the Trinity, something we will never fully grasp, but I have tried and continue to try, I don’t check my logic, reason, intellect at the door - I use them as far as they can take me. Logic tells me you cannot prove beyond Joseph Smith’s own unverifiable words - and some verifiably wrong words - anything about Mormonism supposedly being God’s truth, or can you? Kind of why he draws fire on his character, it is relevant to the argument when there is no other evidence but the man himself. To Triune Christians, Jesus is God, and even Jesus has other evidence. Joseph Smith must have felt similarly, which is what his JST was trying to clear up, by adding himself to the Bible (breaking another test of a follower/prophet of God, and which Dead Sea Scrolls have provided evidence that the Old Testament is well translated from at least 200 BC)
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Janderich said:
Or the KJV, “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus; who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God…” This simply validates my point. Why is Paul telling us to have the same mindset as Christ in this matter? If we were of a different form he would not ask us to think it “not robbery to be equal with God” as Christ considered himself. Do you see the very analogy confirms the point?

That being said, you are correct about humility. I do not mean to say that we are like him at present. We all simply have the potential in us but it may be eons and eons of time before the righteous approach His attributes, His character. We currently are as nothing even lest then the dust of the earth for we do not at present follow him in all things but have gone our own way.
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Because thanks to Jesus and His passion, we are ADOPTED children of God. There is only One God and three Persons.
 
zaffiroborant said:
Heretics are still Christians, Arius was remained a Christian after the council.
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Arius was a Christian. as defined in the dictionary, and as defined in the Bible. It’s just the Nicene Creed that cast him out of the ranks of Christians.
 
mtolympus said:
That is called the law of eternal progession. It does not discribe the God in our scriptures we are taught about and worship.
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That is because Mormonism started as Christian religion, so the first Mormons wrote the Book of Mormon as a Christian would write it. Then Joseph Smith led them into apostasy in 1844 by teaching polytheism.
 
Janderich said:
Yes just like the Psalmist says, “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Psalms 82:6) Does a chicken grow up to be a horse? Does a dog grow up to be a fish? Are we children of God or not? Search inside yourself and see, it is the plainest logic that a child becomes like his parent.
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No, we are Gods creation just like a chicken, horse, or fish. God is not created; we will never be uncreated.
 
Stephen168 said:
That is because Mormonism started as Christian religion, so the first Mormons wrote the Book of Mormon as a Christian would write it. Then Joseph Smith led them into apostasy in 1844 by teaching polytheism.
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This dosen’t make any sense to me but you are welcome to your opinion.
 
Stephen168 said:
it is not a feeling. It is a fact. You ignore answers while you keep repeating ideas. Why do you do that?
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I was responding to a question from nmgauss. What does it matter to you? Dosen’t anyone else on CAF repeat anything?
 
Janderich said:
Then we are not sons, and God is unapproachable as a Father.
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While Catholics do not believe that we are literal spirit children of the Father (and a Heavenly Mother), and that we are creations of God, the difference between us and a chicken, dog, etc, is that we alone are created in the image and likeness of God (CCC 356-361). Catholics merely disagree with LDS as to what that specifically means (i.e. that it is not talking about a physical image and likeness). We become adopted sons and daughters of God through Christ, which is what happens when we are baptized. Through baptism,

God is approachable through His Son. Through Christ, we come to share in God’s own blessed life, as He wants us to seek Him, know Him, and to love Him (CCC 1). In baptism, we are reborn as sons of God, becoming members of Christ, putting on Christ, becoming co-heirs with Christ, partakers of the divine nature, and share in Christ’s prophetic, priestly, and royal missions (CCC 1212-1274).
 
Boatswain2PA said:
So, that is a “Yes”, and a “Yes” to my two questions?
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It is a No and No because you take the phrase from Joseph Smith and exagerate it to mock and distort the God that the LDS worship. I have given my understanding and belief in Eternal progression in other threads. The LDS worship God the Eternal Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.
 
mtolympus said:
This dosen’t make any sense to me but you are welcome to your opinion.
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Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith were Christians when they wrote the Book of Mormon that is why it contains Christian trinitarian language, as you pointed out.
In 1844, Joseph Smith started teaching about more than one God which is polytheism, which is not Christian. Mormonism started out Christian until Joseph Smith’s apostasy.
 
I will ask it a third time:

To MtOly and other LDS apologetics, I have a few questions for you. Do you really believe that people, humans, can become gods? Do you really believe that our God used to be a human in another universe and, as a reward for being “good” was elevated to deity status and given this universe??
 
mtolympus said:
This dosen’t make any sense to me but you are welcome to your opinion.
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I think what he’s referring to is the apparent evolution in Joseph Smith’s understanding of the nature of God. At the beginnings of the Restoration, his theology tends to be quite compatible with orthodox/traditional understandings of God. The Book of Mormon generally is compatible with the Trinitarian doctrine (though there are some Modalistic tendencies). Then of course there’s the Lectures on Faith, which seems Binitarian at times (for example, in response to the question “How many personages are there in the Godhead”? it says “Two: the Father and the Son”, and while elsewhere it does include the Holy Spirit as a member of the Godhead, it isn’t a “personage”, but the mind of the Father and the Son. Later, Joseph seems to have evolved into the plurality of gods perspective, as we see in the Book of Abraham, the King Follett Discourse, etc. Naturally there are different explanations for all of this, depending on the perspective you are coming from, but it is clear that Joseph Smith’s understanding of God evolved as time passed.
 
Boatswain2PA said:
I will ask it a third time:

To MtOly and other LDS apologetics, I have a few questions for you. Do you really believe that people, humans, can become gods? Do you really believe that our God used to be a human in another universe and, as a reward for being “good” was elevated to deity status and given this universe??
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I believe Janderich gave his response in this post.
 
Janderich said:
Yes just like the Psalmist says, “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Psalms 82:6) Does a chicken grow up to be a horse? Does a dog grow up to be a fish? Are we children of God or not? Search inside yourself and see, it is the plainest logic that a child becomes like his parent.

I believe God used to be man like us. Yes, perhaps even a sinful man. I disagree with your comment about God being exalted simply for being “good”. However, I do not deny the power of God nor the divinity in man.
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mtolympus said:
It is a No and No because you take the phrase from Joseph Smith and exagerate it to mock and distort the God that the LDS worship. I have given my understanding and belief in Eternal progression in other threads. The LDS worship God the Eternal Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.
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Stephen168 said:
Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith were Christians when they wrote the Book of Mormon that is why it contains Christian trinitarian language, as you pointed out.
In 1844, Joseph Smith started teaching about more than one God which is polytheism, which is not Christian. Mormonism started out Christian until Joseph Smith’s apostasy.
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Does polytheism refer to recognizing that there is more than one god, but that there is a godhead? If we chose to worship the godhead only, but acknowledge that there are other lesser gods, is that still polytheism?

When we say “Hail Mary”, are we worshipping the Virgin Mary, and does she thereby become a lesser goddess?
 
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