Are Mormons (LDS) Christians?

[MelanieAnne]

BartBurk, I submit that once you have God and Jesus Christ having separate physical bodies you are already on the road to polytheism, one of many problems with Mormonism.

 

[rpp]

I don’t think you understand what consubstantial means. You might want to check out this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consubstantiality

Notice especially this:

The last time I checked, Christ and I had different bodies, but we are still consubstantial in our humanity. There is nothing which would keep Christ from being consubstantial with the Father’s divinity if the Father had a separate body. The only thing that consubstantial denotes is that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are inherently divine. They have a divine state of being which they have had through all eternity. Christ didn’t progress to his divinity, it his just something he shares with the Father from all eternity. If the Father created a body for himself at the time of creation it doesn’t destroy that inherent divinity which Christ had with the Father from before time began.

Again, I’m not saying I believe the Father has a body. I’m just saying that if Mormons believe the Father has a body it doesn’t have to mean they reject the consubstantiality of Christ with the Father. Right now they reject this consubstantiality, but there is no reason they have to on the basis of their canon.

You are correct, I do not understand consubstantiality.

But then no one does as it is part of the Mystery (note the the use of upper-case) of the Trinity.

I am sorry, but I cannot accept Wikipedia as an authoritative source of theological information. Now, if you want to quote Augustine, Aquinas, or a Church Council then I will listen.

Until then, I would say it is you who do not understand the full ramifications of the Mystery of the Father and Son being consubstantial.

Mormons are polytheists. Your attempts here do not do any good because you are, in fact, mis-stating both Catholic and Mormon theology.

 

[BartBurk]

You are correct, I do not understand consubstantiality.

But then no one does as it is part of the Mystery (note the the use of upper-case) of the Trinity.

I am sorry, but I cannot accept Wikipedia as an authoritative source of theological information. Now, if you want to quote Augustine, Aquinas, or a Church Council then I will listen.

Until then, I would say it is you who do not understand the full ramifications of the Mystery of the Father and Son being consubstantial.

Mormons are polytheists. Your attempts here do not do any good because you are, in fact, mis-stating both Catholic and Mormon theology.

You haven’t quoted anything from them that proves me wrong.

 

[MelanieAnne]

You haven’t quoted anything from them that proves me wrong.

BartBurk, RPP hasn’t given you a cite, but you cannot quote Wikipedia as an authoritative source either. Do you have an authoritative source for your own position?

 

[nebula]

BartBurk, RPP hasn’t given you a cite, but you cannot quote Wikipedia as an authoritative source either. Do you have an authoritative source for your own position?

What, wikipedia isn’t authoritative?

 

[rpp]

You haven’t quoted anything from them that proves me wrong.

You are the one making the assertions. It is up to you to prove your point. For my part, I identify things I agree with and thing.

But if you want one, here is a discussion on the Trinity from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

If you want to see what St. Thomas Aquinas has to say about the Trinity, a good start would be Volume 1, Questions 11, (“The Unity of God”) Articles 2, 3 and 4 in the Summa Theologie.

And here is what the Catechism says about the Trinity.

689 The One whom the Father has sent into our hearts, the Spirit of his Son, is truly God.%between% Consubstantial with the Father and the Son, the Spirit is inseparable from them, in both the inner life of the Trinity and his gift of love for the world. In adoring the Holy Trinity, life-giving, consubstantial, and indivisible, the Church’s faith also professes the distinction of persons. When the Father sends his Word, he always sends his Breath. In their joint mission, the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct but inseparable. To be sure, it is Christ who is seen, the visible image of the invisible God, but it is the Spirit who reveals him.

Distinct but inseparable, that is the key to the Mystery of the Trinity.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Whether the book of mormon is true or false is a matter of opinion.

Don’t you mean, whyme knows it is true, while BartBurk has an opinion that it is not?

But the book of mormon is filled with christ as a central character in it. He is referred to by book of mormon prophets and christ even pays a visit to the new world. Mormons are very much christian maybe not in the catholic way but in their own way, they are christian.

Christ is the central figure in “Jesus Christ Superstar”…doesn’t make it scripture, or any sort of truth.

For catholics to imply otherwise would be insulting to mormons and I am sure to god also.

For Catholics to SAY otherwise is only saying what is truth.

He must be very sorrowful with the catholic posters who judge mormons not to be christian, not based on lifestyle since mormons are taught to live by christian values but rather by prejudice and bigotry.

For you to have the idea that you speak for God, in order to support Mormonism, has nothing to do with Christian “values”.

 

[BartBurk]

You are the one making the assertions. It is up to you to prove your point. For my part, I identify things I agree with and thing.

But if you want one, here is a discussion on the Trinity from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

If you want to see what St. Thomas Aquinas has to say about the Trinity, a good start would be Volume 1, Questions 11, (“The Unity of God”) Articles 2, 3 and 4 in the Summa Theologie.

And here is what the Catechism says about the Trinity.

Distinct but inseparable, that is the key to the Mystery of the Trinity.

And that says nothing about what consubstantiality means. I can’t see how any of that proves that God the Father couldn’t have taken on a body if He desired it. Our goal is to be completely one with Jesus Christ, but that doesn’t mean we all have to give up our bodies to do so.

I am not making the case that God the Father has a body – He doesn’t. But if Mormons say He does they are not invalidating the oneness of the Trinity. I would like to see them move from their position that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost have progressed to Godhood and accept the position of their own scriptures that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the One Eternal God. At least then they would be getting closer to being on the right track.

 

[Deconi]

And that says nothing about what consubstantiality means. I can’t see how any of that proves that God the Father couldn’t have taken on a body if He desired it. Our goal is to be completely one with Jesus Christ, but that doesn’t mean we all have to give up our bodies to do so.

I am not making the case that God the Father has a body – He doesn’t. But if Mormons say He does they are not invalidating the oneness of the Trinity. I would like to see them move from their position that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost have progressed to Godhood and accept the position of their own scriptures that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the One Eternal God. At least then they would be getting closer to being on the right track.

I’m not sure which direction they’re moving, but I have encountered here in NZ, Mormon nuns, who claim they are ‘sister So, and sister Lo’ and that they are “subordinates” to their ‘local’ bishop! Clearly, some of Catholicism is being copied or adopted.

I think I see what you are trying to explain, Bart, in that you have “moved past” the fact of the erroneous understanding, but are looking at a means of Lighting the road for them towards Truth.

Of course, I could be off by several continents.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I am not making the case that God the Father has a body – He doesn’t. But if Mormons say He does they are not invalidating the oneness of the Trinity.

It does, in that, what we know about God is what He has revealed, which, is God is Spirit. The Son was also Spirit and became Incarnate.

To say that God the Father is something other, is to deny the nature of His Person, in so doing, you are denying the Trinity as God has revealed.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Also BartBurk, you are not understand theosis, or the beatific vision. Theosis is partaking of the divine nature of God, not becoming one nature, or consubstantial, with the Trinity.

To believe God the Father has a body, is to break the oneness of the Trinity, it cannot be sustained, not as God has revealed. And to believe otherwise, is to redefine God, which, is what Mormonism has done.

 

[why_me]

Don’t you mean, whyme knows it is true, while BartBurk has an opinion that it is not?

Christ is the central figure in “Jesus Christ Superstar”…doesn’t make it scripture, or any sort of truth.

For Catholics to SAY otherwise is only saying what is truth.

For you to have the idea that you speak for God, in order to support Mormonism, has nothing to do with Christian “values”.

It is all a matter of opinion with the book of mormon. It has not been proven true or false. And so, opinion takes center stage.

Also, as I stated, the book of mormon is filled with Jesus as a central character. Just because you do not believe that book to be true does not lessen the importance of Jesus in the book of mormon and why mormons are christian. I don’t think that god is happy with christians bickering on this forum about just who is a christian and who isn’t. But that is my opinion. The enemy is not mormonism but secular thought that negates the existence of god and a philosophy that takes god out of public life and mocks his existence.

 

[Jash]

Mormons are Christians.

…there is one thing we would not like anyone to wonder about—that is whether or not we are “Christians.”
By and large any controversy in this matter has swirled around two doctrinal issues—our view of the Godhead and our belief in the principle of continuing revelation leading to an open scriptural canon. …I speak today on the first of those two doctrinal issues just mentioned.
Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. …I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.
Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3
So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself.

-Jeffrey R. Holland, “The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent,” Ensign, Nov 2007, 40–42