Are most Jews really Jews?

[dessert]

Is Judaism alive and well, practicing in America today?

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Is Judaism alive and well, practicing in America today?

certain areas I would think so, my town has a large population of Orthodox (religious).

Why?

 

[jj2011]

Some more detail:

The theory that Ashkenazi Jews might be descended from Khazars dates back to the late nineteenth century, and is frequently cited to claim modern Jews are not Israelites and/or to question Israeli claims to territory also sought by Palestinians. It was first publicly proposed in lecture given by Ernest Renan on January 27, 1883, titled “Judaism as a Race and as Religion.” It was popularized by racial theorist Lothrop Stoddard in a 1926 article in the Forum titled “The Pedigree of Judah”, where he argued that Ashkenazi Jews were a mix of people, of which the Khazars were a primary element. Stoddard’s views were “based on nineteenth and twentieth-century concepts of race, in which small variations on facial features as well as presumed accompanying character traits were deemed to pass from generation to generation, subject only to the corrupting effects of marriage with members of other groups, the result of which would lower the superior stock without raising the inferior partners.” This theory was adopted by British Israelites, who saw it as a means of invalidating the claims of Jews (rather than themselves) to be the true descendants of the ancient Israelites, and was supported by early anti-Zionists.

In 1951 Southern Methodist University professor John O. Beaty published The Iron Curtain over America, a work which claimed that “Khazar Jews” were “responsible for all of America’s - and the world’s - ills beginning with World War I”. The book repeated a number of familiar antisemitic claims, placing responsibility for U.S. involvement in World Wars I and II and the Bolshevik revolution on these Khazars, and insisting that Khazar Jews were attempting to subvert Western Christianity and establish communism throughout the world. The American millionaire J. Russell Maguire gave money towards its promotion, and it was met with enthusiasm by hate groups and the extreme right. By the 1960s the Khazar theory had become a “firm article of faith” amongst Christian Identity groups. In 1971 Glubb Pasha also took up this theme, insisting that Palestinians were more closely related to the ancient Judeans than were Jews.

The theory gained further support when the novelist Arthur Koestler devoted his popular book The Thirteenth Tribe (1976) to the topic. , His discussion of theories about Ashkenazi descent is largely unsupported; to the extent that Koestler referred to place-names and documentary evidence his analysis has been described as a mixture of flawed etymologies and misinterpreted primary sources. Commentors have also noted that Koestler mischaracterized the sources he cited, particularly D.M. Dunlop’s History of the Jewish Khazars (1954).

In the 1970s and 80s the Khazar theory was also advanced used by some Russian chauvinist antisemites, particularly the historian Lev Gumilyov, who portrayed “Judeo-Khazars” as having repeatedly sabotaged Russia’s development since the 7th century.

According to Bernard Lewis:

This theory… is supported by no evidence whatsoever. It has long since been abandoned by all serious scholars in the field, including those in Arab countries, where the Khazar theory is little used except in occasional political polemics.[29]

Although the Khazar thing is routinely brought up by neo-Nazis, I don’t think it’s intrinsically anti-Semitic. There is historical evidence that the Khazars converted to Judaism around the eighth century, as indicated by Koestler and other historical sources.

This does not automatically mean that the Ashkenazis have no Semitic blood. Only God knows the answers conclusively.

 

[dessert]

certain areas I would think so, my town has a large population of Orthodox (religious).

Why?

For the OP ;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

About 5 mil in the USA and about 5mil in Israel

 

[chosen_people]

Although the Khazar thing is routinely brought up by neo-Nazis, I don’t think it’s intrinsically anti-Semitic. There is historical evidence that the Khazars converted to Judaism around the eighth century, as indicated by Koestler and other historical sources.

This does not automatically mean that the Ashkenazis have no Semitic blood. Only God knows the answers conclusively.

In an age of genetic research and DNA we have conclusive knowledge and proof as to whether Jews, Ashkenazic or Sepharadic, born in North America or Russia or Ethiopia or Yemen, make up a distinctive people traceable back to their roots in the land of Israel.

'Haplotypes

A haplotype is a set of closely linked genetic markers present on one chromosome, which tend to be inherited together.

Med is the most common haplotype among Jewish peoples. It is believed to have originated in the Middle East because the greatest concentrations of the Med haplotype are found among the people who live there today. It is shared by other people around the Mediterranean Basin (hence, the name). It may have been spread by farmers moving to new lands, by sea-going traders or both.

4s is the second most frequent haplotype in Jewish populations. It may have originated in East Africa and have been spread north along the Nile before entering Palestine.

Virtually all Jews came from the Middle East as evidenced by the clustering of their Y chromosomal haplotypes between Jewish groups and between Jews and non-Jewish Middle Easterners.

The existence of a priestly line of males (“Kohanim”) is shown as a distinctive set of genetic markers on the father-to-son transmitted Y chromosome. Limited variation of these markers among Kohanim males is compatible with a 3300-year-old origin in a single male or group of related males, possibly from the family of Aaron.’

source:med.nyu.edu/pediatrics/genetics/research/jewish_origins.html (as well as any and all scientific studies)

What does all this mean? Simply that when your Jewish neighbours recalls the story of their forefathers going out of Egypt with Moses on Passover they are in fact retelling their history of their people.

A more interesting question is the effort over the centuries by certain groups to claim that the Jews of the bible and the Jews of today are not the same people even though with some minor and exceptional cases like the Khazar’s it is well known and documented that there was virtually no intermarriage or conversions to Judaisim. In fact a recurring topic on this forum
is like this thread making that exact specious claim. The reasons behind the efforts require an independent and lengthy post but from a Catholic perspective are connected to the place of the Jew and his convenant with God after Yehoshua bar Yosef.

Ironically Professor Kevin Macdonald uses the genetic evidence about the Jews to present a racist theory whereby Jews manipulate themselves genetically and support as one certain social causes and laws in order to secure their domination over their gentile neighbours (needless to say he is the darling of every white supremicist antisemitc hate site on the internet) For a summary and criticism of his views see slate.com/id/1004446/

For the comments about Israel and their right to self determination and to their land as all other people see terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened

 

[SolaFide]

For any anti-semites out there, please read, consider and repent…

Please consider these things that NO OTHER nation or people group in the entire history of civilization has ever been able to do:

A) Maintain its ethnic identity after 2,000 years of dispersion, yet the Jews have done so.

B) Re-establish their homeland nation after 2,000 of dispersion, yet the nation of Israel was “reborn” on May 14, 1948.

C) Re-establish their language, yet after 2,000 years of dispersion into other countries with other languages, Hebrew, after being nothing more than a liturgical language for 2,000 years is once again the common and official language of the Jews and nation in Israel.

I’m not sure how anyone can look at these events and not realize that God’s hand has clearly been upon ethnic Israel to preserve her for a purpose and “special assignment.” It is no surprise to me that so many Jews are doing “aliyah” or immigrating to Israel from all over the world.

The Bible is Hebraic in it’s outlook, language, and scope. The sooner the church gets a grip on this and returns to it’s Hebraic roots rather than it’s Hellenistic, Neo-Platonic, pseudo-gnosticism, Augustinian bent, the better.

 

[lukewarm]

Please consider these things that NO OTHER nation or people group in the entire history of civilization has ever been able to do:

A) Maintain its ethnic identity after 2,000 years of dispersion, yet the Jews have done so.

B) Re-establish their homeland nation after 2,000 of dispersion, yet the nation of Israel was “reborn” on May 14, 1948.

C) Re-establish their language, yet after 2,000 years of dispersion into other countries with other languages, Hebrew, after being nothing more than a liturgical language for 2,000 years is once again the common and official language of the Jews and nation in Israel.

I’m not sure how anyone can look at these events and not realize that God’s hand has clearly been upon ethnic Israel to preserve her for a purpose and “special assignment.” It is no surprise to me that so many Jews are doing “aliyah” or immigrating to Israel from all over the world. .

Not for nothing but the Palestinians are as old as the jews, not to mention the Irish have done nearly everything you listed too, they regained their homeland in the 1920’s I believe after genocide and a major dispersion of their people. They’ve revived thier native language Gaelic etc…

Plus the Jews today many of them are Jews by religion not necessarily race, they can be two different things.

If you’re Catholic modern day Israel today has nothing to do with anything, if you follow a Catholic view of eschatology. We don’t have to view modern Israel as anything, God’s people are all who beleive in His Son. The physical piece of land doesn’t matter to Catholics.

 

[SolaFide]

Not for nothing but the Palestinians are as old as the jews, not to mention the Irish have done nearly everything you listed too, they regained their homeland in the 1920’s I believe after genocide and a major dispersion of their people. They’ve revived thier native language Gaelic etc…

Plus the Jews today many of them are Jews by religion not necessarily race, they can be two different things.

If you’re Catholic modern day Israel today has nothing to do with anything, if you follow a Catholic view of eschatology. We don’t have to view modern Israel as anything, God’s people are all who beleive in His Son. The physical piece of land doesn’t matter to Catholics.

1. The Palestinians are not as old as the Jews. They are an amalgamation of Arab and Muslim nomadic tribes who settled in the Holy Land that came together and decided to call themselves “Palestinians” since the British Mandate had named the Holy Land “Palestine.” And it wasn’t until the returning Zionists actually drained the swamps, irrigated the land and actually got stuff to grow that these nomadic Arab tribes (who, BTW, had fought against each other previously) decided to unite and take over this land that is suddenly so fruitful.
2. The Irish were NEVER expelled and exiled from their land although it was high-jacked by the British for many years…all the while the Irish were still IN the land, many migrated yes (my mother’s ancestors for one) but the Irish still had a presence in the land. Big difference. The Jews were not in their land. Also Irish Gaelic is not the common language of the people in Ireland…English is. Gaelic is only common in certain counties (like Galway) and not throughout the country. While Gaelic is being taught in the schools in Ireland it has not become the common language of the people in Ireland.

Hebrew is the official and common language of Israel and is spoken by nearly everyone. It is followed by the trade language: English with Arabic only being spoken by about 5% of the population.

To compare the struggle and resurrection of the nation of Israel with Ireland is laughable at best, but anti-semitic and dismissive at worst.

Yes, sadly it is the Catholic idea that “Israel” is nothing which stems from their erroneous “replacement theology” of the church having replaced Israel that lead to so many church father’s anti-semitic views and hatred of the Jews. This is what the church needs to repent of.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jews don’t have to be Israelites, they can be of any race, like Ruth, King David’s grandmother. They just need to believe in God and observe Torah.

That said, the standard today is that people can be Jews if they convert to Orthodox Judaism or are born to a Jewish mother, which we can call “ethnic Jews” again not having anything to do with race. They don’t need to observe Torah or even believe in God, in fact it’s possible that most Jews are even atheists. The attitude in Judaism is that one can be a good Jew without believing in God.

The only restriction is that you can’t believe in Jesus if you want to be treated like a Jew by other Jews, although by the law if you are an ethnic Jew you are always a Jew.

So what is someone who rejects Jesus regardless of what they do, if you believe Jesus is God? They are atheists and antichrists. If you don’t believe Jesus is God like me, but still Messiah, then such Jews who still believe in God are just antichrists as it says in 1 John 2:22-23, though it also says you won’t really have God if you don’t accept Jesus so they may as well be atheists too.

So then, a Jew who is really a Jew in God’s eyes is one who observes Torah and accepts Jesus as Messiah.

 

[Kaninchen]

So then, a Jew who is really a Jew in God’s eyes is one who observes Torah and accepts Jesus as Messiah.

Being a member of a People who appear as pawns in some other religions’ etiologies and eschatological dramas can feel more than a little strange – this becomes both surreal and menacing when those religions/members of those religions take it into their heads to define what that People are.

But, hey, what’s new in that?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Being a member of a People who appear as pawns in some other religions’ etiologies and eschatological dramas can feel more than a little strange – this becomes both surreal and menacing when those religions/members of those religions take it into their heads to define what that People are.

But, hey, what’s new in that?

I didn’t come up with anything in my head, the first half is what Jews themselves say now, the second half is what the Bible – written by Jews then – says.

 

[Kaninchen]

I didn’t come up with anything in my head, the first half is what Jews themselves say now, the second half is what the Bible – written by Jews then – says.

Where, in Jewish scripture, does it say we are to believe in Jesus?

**

 

[mercygate]

Most Jews are really Jews. In fact, all jews are really jews. Now go study.

Yup. And got the DNA to show for it! How 'bout them Ethiopians?

 

[Kaninchen]

Perhaps the strangest thing about being Jewish is that you grow up thinking that Jews can be more than a little self-obsessed only then to discover that there seem to be an awful lot of people whose obsession with Jews seems to know no bounds.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Where, in Jewish scripture, does it say we are to believe in Jesus?

**

Where in Jewish scripture does it say Jews don’t have to observe Torah or that they can profess atheism as a matter of lifestyle and still be good Jews?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Perhaps the strangest thing about being Jewish is that you grow up thinking that Jews can be more than a little self-obsessed only then to discover that there seem to be an awful lot of people whose obsession with Jews seems to know no bounds.

Since Catholicism is based on teachings of Jews in the Bible, that we’re here talking about Jews shouldn’t be shocking.

 

[Kaninchen]

Where in Jewish scripture does it say Jews don’t have to observe Torah or that they can profess atheism as a matter of lifestyle and still be good Jews?

Your position here is somewhat meaningless - there is no ‘one’ Jewish position to be defended or attacked.

 

[Kaninchen]

Since Catholicism is based on teachings of Jews in the Bible, that we’re here talking about Jews shouldn’t be shocking.

I’m sure that you find it terribly important that Catholics define Jews, quite why that’s the case, I can’t imagine but, if it’s important to you then ‘knock yourself out’ (as they say).

It’s still weird to have one’s Jewishness defined by followers of some other religion.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Your position here is somewhat meaningless - there is no ‘one’ Jewish position to be defended or attacked.

Of course there’s not only one, but I was asking about that one. Do you think Jews don’t have to observe Torah or that they can profess atheism as a matter of lifestyle and still be good Jews?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I’m sure that you find it terribly important that Catholics define Jews, quite why that’s the case, I can’t imagine but, if it’s important to you then ‘knock yourself out’ (as they say).

It’s still weird to have one’s Jewishness defined by followers of some other religion.

Why? I work on Wikipedia a lot and Jewish and Christian editors define Islam in all the Islam articles every day. It doesn’t bother me, some of them know more about Islam than a lot of Muslims.

Like, you don’t have to be Mexican or Chinese to know how to make Mexican or Chinese food that tastes good.