Are most Jews really Jews?

[Valke2]

Why? I work on Wikipedia a lot and Jewish and Christian editors define Islam in all the Islam articles every day. It doesn’t bother me, some of them know more about Islam than a lot of Muslims.

Like, you don’t have to be Mexican or Chinese to know how to make Mexican or Chinese food that tastes good.

Trust me Faith. You are not one of those nonjews who know more about Judaism.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Trust me Faith. You are not one of those nonjews who know more about Judaism.

Did I say something that misrepresented Judaism, what was it specifically? Do you believe Jews can be good Jews and not believe in God or observe Torah, or not? If you want to set the record straight now is a good time to do it.

 

[Kaninchen]

Why? I work on Wikipedia a lot and Jewish and Christian editors define Islam in all the Islam articles every day. It doesn’t bother me, some of them know more about Islam than a lot of Muslims.

Like, you don’t have to be Mexican or Chinese to know how to make Mexican or Chinese food that tastes good.

Perhaps you should consider concepts such as ‘category error’ and ‘composition error’? You never know, you might even be able to find out about them on Wikipedia.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Perhaps you should consider concepts such as ‘category error’ and ‘composition error’? You never know, you might even be able to find out about them on Wikipedia.

In other words you don’t really want to answer my question.

 

[Kaninchen]

In other words you don’t really want to answer my question.

No, I’m saying that it’s not a (logically valid) question.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No, I’m saying that it’s not a (logically valid) question.

Why not? Don’t you have a view as to whether it’s ok or not for a Jew to be an atheist or not observe Torah?

You know that Jews came into being when God gave them Torah at Sinai, and Jews claim every Jew in history was there, right? Without that story of God and Torah there would be no such thing as Jews.

So it’s kind of an important question to ask if Jews should believe that story, believe in God, and observe Torah. Since they are essentially voiding their own Jewishness if they don’t.

 

[Kaninchen]

Why not? Don’t you have a view as to whether it’s ok or not for a Jew to be an atheist or not observe Torah?

You know that Jews came into being when God gave them Torah at Sinai, and Jews claim every Jew in history was there, right? So without that story of God and Torah there would be no such thing as Jews.

So it’s kind of an important question to ask if Jews should believe that story, believe in God, and observe Torah. Since they are essentially voiding their own Jewishness if they don’t.

I wonder why a Muslim is so fascinated with the question of who is, or is not, Jewish?

I have my suspicions, of course, but it would be interesting to know if your reason is different from the usual Muslim obsession.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I wonder why a Muslim is so fascinated with the question of who is, or is not, Jewish?

I have my suspicions, of course, but it would be interesting to know if your reason is different from the usual Muslim obsession.

Well I didn’t start this thread, someone else did. We are in the Non-Catholic Religions section after all, Catholics are asking questions about Muslims too and I’m happy to try and answer, not wondering why they ask since we three are supposed to be Abrahamic religions.

If you can’t answer any of the questions why don’t you just say that instead of wondering why we ask questions about the Jewish people that the Bible is based on? Or just be direct and tell us to mind our own business, if that’s what you are really getting at, and see what the answer is, that could be interesting too.

 

[Kaninchen]

Well I didn’t start this thread, someone else did. We are in the Non-Catholic Religions section after all, Catholics are asking questions about Muslims too and I’m happy to try and answer, not wondering why they ask since we three are supposed to be Abrahamic religions.

If you can’t answer any of the questions why don’t you just say that instead of wondering why we ask questions about the Jewish people that the Bible is based on? Or tell us to mind our own business and see what the answer is, that could be interesting too.

The thing is, you see, that even a reading of Wikipedia would explain the concepts of ‘Jew’ and ‘Jewish’ beyond the faux naïf position that you’ve used in your ‘question’. Now, since I don’t think that you’re naive, it would suggest that there’s another motive behind your asking.

On the other hand, you might just be really naive, of course.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The thing is, you see, that even a reading of Wikipedia would explain the concepts of ‘Jew’ and ‘Jewish’ beyond the faux naïf position that you’ve used in your ‘question’. Now, since I don’t think that you’re naive, it would suggest that there’s another motive behind your asking.

On the other hand, you might just be really naive, of course.

Who is a Jew?

A Jewish atheist or atheist Jew is a person of Jewish ethnicity who is an atheist, meaning they do not believe in God. Because Jewishness encompasses ethnic as well as religious components, it should be noted that the term “Jewish atheist” does not necessarily imply any kind of contradiction, unlike, for example “Christian atheist”. Based on Jewish law’s emphasis on matrilineal descent, Orthodox Jewish authorities would accept as fully Jewish an atheist with a Jewish mother.

So what do you think about that idea, that atheist Jews are accepted as Jews by other Jews. Even though the reason for being a Jew originated with God giving Torah at Sinai, and the Law about matrilineal descent is also derived from it.

There’s no difference in saying that than there is saying that you descended from Abraham but don’t believe Abraham ever existed. You cancel out your own identity.

 

[Kaninchen]

It seems that you’ve managed to realize that ‘Jew’ and ‘Jewish’ is seen, by Jews, as slightly complicated.

Now, I wonder if you can imagine just why that might be? Let’s see if you can try to imagine why from a Jewish point of view rather than churning out some rote Muslim (or Christian for that matter) litany.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It seems that you’ve managed to realize that ‘Jew’ and ‘Jewish’ is seen, by Jews, as slightly complicated.

Now, I wonder if you can imagine just why that might be? Let’s see if you can try to imagine why from a Jewish point of view rather than churning out some rote Muslim (or Christian for that matter) litany.

Maybe because they embrace the first part of story that implies the son of a Jewish woman should be treated as a Jew, but ignore the second part saying that if he breaks the rules he should be an outcast.

I’m not suggesting believing Jews take atheist Jews out and stone them, but since Jews don’t have a problem telling ethnic Jews who believe in Jesus that they are really Christians not Jews and kick them to the curb, why not do the same for Jews who don’t even believe in God?

 

[Kaninchen]

Maybe because they embrace the first part of story that implies the son of a Jewish woman should be treated as a Jew, but ignore the second part saying that if he breaks the rules he should be an outcast.

I’m not suggesting believing Jews take atheist Jews out and stone them, but since Jews don’t have a problem telling ethnic Jews who believe in Jesus that they are really Christians not Jews and kick them to the curb, why not do the same for Jews who don’t even believe in God?

No, you’re looking at it like a Muslim or Christian with all the “black v’s white” presumption that goes with the territory.

Now, we tend to think of ourselves as a religious group, yes - but we also think of ourselves as a ‘people’, a historic and cultural group, a different kind of ‘sharing’.

Oddly, of course, something that Jew-haters share - Jewish atheists ‘went up the chimney’ at Treblinka along with learned Rebbes and Rabbis.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No, you’re looking at it like a Muslim or Christian with all the “black v’s white” presumption that goes with the territory.

Now, we tend to think of ourselves as a religious group, yes - but we also think of ourselves as a ‘people’, a historic and cultural group, a different kind of ‘sharing’.

Oddly, of course, something that Jew-haters share - Jewish atheists ‘went up the chimney’ at Treblinka along with learned Rebbes and Rabbis.

Jews are only a people because of God, so it’s still a religious group of people no matter what else you call it, either through conversion with the intention to worship God, or matrilineal descent that comes from God’s Law.

Accepting atheism doesn’t make for a special family of friends continuing on without religion, but just a religion gone sour that disregards God and does what it wants. Similarly, I think it will be hard for you to find a Christian or Muslim that admits to being atheist.

 

[Kaninchen]

Jews are only a people because of God, so it’s still a religious group of people no matter what else you call it, either through conversion with the intention to worship God, or matrilineal descent that comes from God’s Law.

Hey, I said, you want to define ‘Jews’, knock yourself out. Doesn’t mean that you’ll understand how Jews see being Jewish or have the slightest understanding of Judaism but, if it makes you happy . . .

Accepting atheism doesn’t make for a special family of friends continuing on without religion, but just a religion gone sour that disregards God and does what it wants. Similarly, I think it will be hard for you to find a Christian or Muslim that admits to being atheist.

The only interest I have in Muslims is that they shouldn’t be persecuted for being Muslim.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Hey, I said, you want to define ‘Jews’, knock yourself out. Doesn’t mean that you’ll understand how Jews see being Jewish or have the slightest understanding of Judaism but, if it makes you happy . . .

The only interest I have in Muslims is that they shouldn’t be persecuted for being Muslim.

I don’t think I would call it persecution to say that an atheist Muslim was not a real Muslim. I understand all that emotional family struggle trials triumphs stuff, I’ve heard it a million times.

I just wanted some direct answers.

What do you personally think about the idea that Jews can be Jews without God, even though they are only Jews because of God, either through conversion and claimed belief in God, or the matrilineal descent from God’s Law? Do you see any contradiction there, or not?

 

[Kaninchen]

I don’t think I would call it persecution to say that an atheist Muslim was not a real Muslim. I understand all that emotional family struggle trials triumphs stuff, I’ve heard it a million times.

That’s not the context I was suggesting. I’m a European, I’d rather that my Muslim fellow citizens are treated in a civilized way.

I just wanted some direct answers.

Then you should pay far, far more attention to the questions that you ask.

What do you personally think about the idea that Jews can be Jews without God, even though they are only Jews because of God, either through conversion and claimed belief in God, or the matrilineal descent from God’s Law? Do you see any contradiction there, or not?

You haven’t been reading, have you?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You haven’t been reading, have you?

You said Jews have a different kind of sharing but that’s about it. You didn’t say if you thought it was a contradiction that atheist Jews are only Jews because of God’s Laws.

Kind of like borrowing money from someone then denying that the person ever loaned it to you. I think that’s pretty much considered stealing.

 

[Valke2]

Did I say something that misrepresented Judaism, what was it specifically? Do you believe Jews can be good Jews and not believe in God or observe Torah, or not? If you want to set the record straight now is a good time to do it.

I’d be happy to set the record straight. A jew is a jew. Some Jews are better than others. What you mean by a “good jew” I have no idea. Are you categorizing between Torah observant and secular Jews?

I will be happy to take a more critical and detailed approach to your future posts as they apply to Judaism and Jews.

 

[Valke2]

Who is a Jew?

A Jewish atheist or atheist Jew is a person of Jewish ethnicity who is an atheist, meaning they do not believe in God. Because Jewishness encompasses ethnic as well as religious components, it should be noted that the term “Jewish atheist” does not necessarily imply any kind of contradiction, unlike, for example “Christian atheist”. Based on Jewish law’s emphasis on matrilineal descent, Orthodox Jewish authorities would accept as fully Jewish an atheist with a Jewish mother.

So what do you think about that idea, that atheist Jews are accepted as Jews by other Jews. Even though the reason for being a Jew originated with God giving Torah at Sinai, and the Law about matrilineal descent is also derived from it.

There’s no difference in saying that than there is saying that you descended from Abraham but don’t believe Abraham ever existed. You cancel out your own identity.

Your quote is from a section of wikipedia designed to clean up various atheism articles, rather than from a section on Judaism. The quality of the article is classifed as “start class” by Wikipedia, which is the third lowest, or fifth highest if you prefer, of the wikipedia classifications.

A jew is a jew. You are free to disagree for whatever personal reasons you have and ignore the fact that Jewish identity encompasses things outside Sinai.