Are most Jews really Jews?

[Valke2]

Maybe because they embrace the first part of story that implies the son of a Jewish woman should be treated as a Jew, but ignore the second part saying that if he breaks the rules he should be an outcast.

I’m not suggesting believing Jews take atheist Jews out and stone them, but since Jews don’t have a problem telling ethnic Jews who believe in Jesus that they are really Christians not Jews and kick them to the curb, why not do the same for Jews who don’t even believe in God?

And you get this from where? By ethnic Jew I assume you mean Jew. I wonder what a religoius muslim would do to a daughter or son who fell in love or adopted the views of an apologist for the Crusades.

 

[Valke2]

I don’t think I would call it persecution to say that an atheist Muslim was not a real Muslim. I understand all that emotional family struggle trials triumphs stuff, I’ve heard it a million times.

I just wanted some direct answers.

What do you personally think about the idea that Jews can be Jews without God, even though they are only Jews because of God, either through conversion and claimed belief in God, or the matrilineal descent from God’s Law? Do you see any contradiction there, or not?

No contradiction. Everyone is who they are because of God. The concept of God is not the same as God. We cannot define God. So given that, it is difficult to say who believes in God and who doesn’t. If it makes you feel better, you can consider that a secular Jew will still have Jewish children who may be more religious and adhere to the mitzvot is a way that would make you proud.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Your quote is from a section of wikipedia designed to clean up various atheism articles, rather than from a section on Judaism. The quality of the article is classifed as “start class” by Wikipedia, which is the third lowest, or fifth highest if you prefer, of the wikipedia classifications.

A jew is a jew. You are free to disagree for whatever personal reasons you have and ignore the fact that Jewish identity encompasses things outside Sinai.

What is incorrect about the paragraph I quoted?

Are there are ways to become a Jew besides:

1. Being born to a Jewish mother, a standard which is derived from what God said about it.
2. Converting to Judaism with intent to observe Torah.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No contradiction. Everyone is who they are because of God. The concept of God is not the same as God. We cannot define God. So given that, it is difficult to say who believes in God and who doesn’t. If it makes you feel better, you can consider that a secular Jew will still have Jewish children who may be more religious and adhere to the mitzvot is a way that would make you proud.

What about a Jew who says that any concept of the God of Israel is dumb, is it a contradiction that such a person should still identify as a Jew if being a Jew depends on either conversion to Judaism and acceptance of Torah which comes from God, or God’s Laws about matrilinial descent?

How is it not a contradiction if you deny the source of what caused you to be who you are?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

And you get this from where? By ethnic Jew I assume you mean Jew. I wonder what a religoius muslim would do to a daughter or son who fell in love or adopted the views of an apologist for the Crusades.

If they renounced God or the Quran in the process then we wouldn’t call them Muslim anymore, that’s just kind of common sense.

 

[Kaninchen]

You said Jews have a different kind of sharing but that’s about it. You didn’t say if you thought it was a contradiction that atheist Jews are only Jews because of God’s Laws.

Kind of like borrowing money from someone then denying that the person ever loaned it to you. I think that’s pretty much considered stealing.

No, kind of: “FaithofAbraham has decided what the answer is and is determined to stick to it no matter what.”

I wonder if it’s possible that this conversation will get even more pointless?

 

[Kaninchen]

If they renounced God or the Quran in the process then we wouldn’t call them Muslim anymore, that’s just kind of common sense.

I really do think that you should consider the question of category errors.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The most troubling thing about Judaism, besides rejecting Jesus, is that it allows for the possibility that someday all Jews on earth could be atheists.

So it should be expected that some religious people are going redefine Jewishness as first based on God, and disregard what mainstream Judaism says about who is a Jew.

 

[Kaninchen]

The most troubling thing about Judaism, besides rejecting Jesus, is that it allows for the possibility that someday all Jews on earth could be atheists.

Why on earth should you be troubled by Judaism? There are less than 20 million of us, something like 1.5 billion Christians and a billion Muslims and you’re troubled by us?

So it should be expected that some religious people are going redefine Jewishness as first based on God, and disregard what mainstream Judaism says about who is a Jew.

Frankly, that’s one of the funniest things I’ve read on this board in the whole time I’ve been on it.

All sorts of religious ‘worthies’ and all sorts of religious/secular cranks have, over the centuries, had all sorts of day dreams and nightmares about who/what Jews are. We’re going to worry about another one on a message board? I think not.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Why on earth should you be troubled by Judaism? There are less than 20 million of us, something like 1.5 billion Christians and a billion Muslims and you’re troubled by us?

Frankly, that’s one of the funniest things I’ve read on this board in the whole time I’ve been on it.

All sorts of religious ‘worthies’ and all sorts of religious/secular cranks have, over the centuries, had all sorts of day dreams and nightmares about who/what Jews are. We’re going to worry about another one on a message board? I think not.

It’s troubling and sad because Jews should be considered God’s people, not a God-optional people. If you wouldn’t worry about the wrath of God, I’m not really expecting you to worry about what anyone else thinks either.

I just wanted to see if anyone here wanted to take a crack at justifying the absurd notion that a Jew can reject the thing that makes him a Jew and still honestly call himself a Jew. Of course you can’t justify it as I already knew, but it’s interesting to see the responses.

 

[Kaninchen]

It’s troubling and sad because Jews should be considered God’s people, not a God-optional people. If you wouldn’t worry about the wrath of God, I’m not really expecting you to worry about what anyone else thinks either.

I just wanted to see if anyone here wanted to take a crack at justifying the absurd notion that a Jew can reject the thing that makes him a Jew and still honestly call himself a Jew. Of course you can’t justify it as I already knew, but it’s interesting to see the responses.

Still haven’t got the hang of the concept of ‘category error’, have you?

Nevermind.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Still haven’t got the hang of the concept of ‘category error’, have you?

Nevermind.

It’s like if some school sent you a doctorate degree in the mail, and you really believed the school was bogus, but then you started telling people they need to call you Dr. Kaninchen anyway.

In other words living a lie. I don’t think a lot of good can come from that, do you?

 

[Kaninchen]

It’s like if some school sent you a doctorate degree in the mail, and you really believed the school was bogus, but then you started telling people they need to call you Dr. Kaninchen anyway.

In other words living a lie. I don’t think a lot of good can come from that, do you?

You seem to have an awful lot invested in all this.

We really must annoy you.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You seem to have an awful lot invested in all this.

We really must annoy you.

It’s nice to know what the people of the Bible are up to. As a person who likes to get to the point, evasive maneuvers and snowjobs annoy me. But I expect that.

 

[Kaninchen]

It’s nice to know what the people of the Bible are up to. As a person who likes to get to the point, evasive maneuvers and snowjobs annoy me. But I expect that.

You’re such fun, too.

 

[Valke2]

I’ll give you an example to think about:

The surest way of misundersating revelation is to take it literally, to imagine that God spoke to the prophet on a long-distance telephone. Yet most of us forget that the cardinial sin in thinking about ultimate issues is iliteral-mindedness

It often seems as if the inention of the prophets was to be understood not in one way, on one level, but in many ways, on many levels, according to the situation in which we find ourselves.

As an event of the past which sukbsequently affected the course of civilization, revelation would not engage the modern mind any more than the Battle of Marathon. Revelation concerns us not because of the impact it had upon the past generations but as something which may or may not be of prepetual, unabating relevance.

All of the above has been expressed by Abraham Joshua Heschel, a very well known and respected rabbi. Now, if as a Jew I disagree with this, am I not a good jew? If my interpetation of revelation disagrees with a more orthodox or literal interpertation, am I the better or the poorer jew?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

All of the above has been expressed by Abraham Joshua Heschel, a very well known and respected rabbi. Now, if as a Jew I disagree with this, am I not a good jew? If my interpetation of revelation disagrees with a more orthodox or literal interpertation, am I the better or the poorer jew?

His point got lost on me, was he struggling to say prophecies mean more than one thing? I think there is a way to feel out valid teaching and know what to accept and not to accept, case by case.

I’m not sure how that relates to addressing the problem of a Jew denying the thing that made him a Jew. Unless you want to say that Jews themselves are gods as the Mormons imply they are, and that Jews make their own rules as gods, which I have also heard some Jews say too.

 

[Valke2]

His point got lost on me, was he struggling to say prophecies mean more than one thing? I think there is a way to feel out valid teaching and know what to accept and not to accept, case by case.

I’m not sure how that relates to addressing the problem of a Jew denying the thing that made him a Jew. Unless you want to say that Jews themselves are gods as the Mormons imply they are, and that Jews make their own rules as gods, which I have also heard some Jews say too.

I’l condense. If I as a Jew say that I don’t believe in the literal meaning of Sinai, but that it was rather an attempt to express the experience of the active revelation of God to man, am I a good Jew or something else? Btw, I’ve known a few jews in my time and I’ve never heard any of them imply that they were gods.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I’l condense. If I as a Jew say that I don’t believe in the literal meaning of Sinai, but that it was rather an attempt to express the experience of the active revelation of God to man, am I a good Jew or something else? Btw, I’ve known a few jews in my time and I’ve never heard any of them imply that they were gods.

I could say that it is a bad belief, but I think would first need to know why you thought that if nothing in the story indicates it was a metaphor to determine if you were just misled, or being intentionally misleading yourself, in order to determine if that made you good or bad.

 

[Rick09]

What about a Jew who says that any concept of the God of Israel is dumb, is it a contradiction that such a person should still identify as a Jew if being a Jew depends on either conversion to Judaism and acceptance of Torah which comes from God, or God’s Laws about matrilinial descent?

How is it not a contradiction if you deny the source of what caused you to be who you are?

Hmmm. What about Catholicism? After a person is baptized, they are Catholic. It can’t be “undone.” It’s a permanent mark on the soul. Such a person may then go on to reject everything (including God) and be a horrible Catholic in danger of hellfire. But they would be a Catholic who went to hell.

Some people who reject most everything about the Catholic faith still even call themselves Catholics, and they are. They’re just lousy, quasi-apostate or apostate Catholics.