Are most marriages invalid?

[pianistclare]

ahhh ok. That makes more sense. Though I think it is a cop out rather than looking at the real issue. Even if you cut the annulment in HALF by the fact that 100 percent of US annulments have a non Catholic participant, then we still by far take up more of our fair share. Why is that?

Americans are ill catechized.
With trends like wedding on the beach with some mail order “minister”…fast forward…get ready for oodles of people line up for annulments in the years to come. Our parish only has 8 or so marriages a year. Do the math. Young people don’t really “bother” with Church weddings. Eventually it becomes important to them.
The trouble with the tribunals is that there are covered up with requests.
Case in point: I had 2 friends desperately seeking annulments. One did the hurry up and wait thing. She waited 15 years. Faithfully never missed Mass. Volunteered a lot at the parish. Had a marriage to an abusive man 35 years ago. But she waited, because she wanted to receive Eucharist. We celebrated her wedding this past summer. Her hubs is terminally ill. Sad. but, they rejoice that the waiting was over before he passed. The other woman, had a spouse who cheated on her for 30 years with a childhood friend. He was a pilot, she never had a clue. She however, called the Tribunal every Tuesday and Thursday morning, on the dot, at 8 AM. FOR TWO YEARS STRIAGHT. They got sick of hearing form her. It came through. The first woman…hers came through 5 years later.
Paperwork. Red tape. Not enough employees to get the work and investigations done.
That’s what Francis is talking about. Good people are waiting. The process needs to be made more efficient, not the rules bending, as some fear.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Americans are ill catechized.
With trends like wedding on the beach with some mail order “minister”…fast forward…get ready for oodles of people line up for annulments in the years to come. Our parish only has 8 or so marriages a year. Do the math. Young people don’t really “bother” with Church weddings. Eventually it becomes important to them.
The trouble with the tribunals is that there are covered up with requests.
Case in point: I had 2 friends desperately seeking annulments. One did the hurry up and wait thing. She waited 15 years. Faithfully never missed Mass. Volunteered a lot at the parish. Had a marriage to an abusive man 35 years ago. But she waited, because she wanted to receive Eucharist. We celebrated her wedding this past summer. Her hubs is terminally ill. Sad. but, they rejoice that the waiting was over before he passed. The other woman, had a spouse who cheated on her for 30 years with a childhood friend. He was a pilot, she never had a clue. She however, called the Tribunal every Tuesday and Thursday morning, on the dot, at 8 AM. FOR TWO YEARS STRIAGHT. They got sick of hearing form her. It came through. The first woman…hers came through 5 years later.
Paperwork. Red tape. Not enough employees to get the work and investigations done.
That’s what Francis is talking about. Good people are waiting. The process needs to be made more efficient, not the rules bending, as some fear.

But this is not a US problem. It is a world problem. Yet in the US we have all the annulments. Weird. Beach weddings are not US specific.

 

[slh3016]

If the Tribunal declares a marriage null based upon faulty and misleading evidence, does their decree have efficacy with God?

In other words, since Jesus gave the apostles the power to bind and loose, would their decree be a form of “loosing” and be honored by God or would the recipient of the decree be in a state of sin by proceeding to remarry since they were deceptive with their evidence and therefore, still married in the eyes of God?

 

[pianistclare]

But this is not a US problem. It is a world problem. Yet in the US we have all the annulments. Weird. Beach weddings are not US specific.

Very true. People in Mexico, for example, just let it go. Our Spanish masses are full of people who don’t receive because they figure what’s the use? Their parishes kept no records, their witnesses are all scattered to the 4 winds, and they just give up. No matter how much our priest says “we can work on it for you!” they say, it’s OK Padre.
Also, Priests in the U.S. push for the annulments because of the big number of RCIA inquiries.
People in the U.S. are starving for a sense of the spiritual. They come seeking entry into the church. And nearly everyone in each class needs an annulment.

 

[powerofk]

Very true. People in Mexico, for example, just let it go. Our Spanish masses are full of people who don’t receive because they figure what’s the use? Their parishes kept no records, their witnesses are all scattered to the 4 winds, and they just give up. No matter how much our priest says “we can work on it for you!” they say, it’s OK Padre.
Also, Priests in the U.S. push for the annulments because of the big number of RCIA inquiries.
People in the U.S. are starving for a sense of the spiritual. They come seeking entry into the church. And nearly everyone in each class needs an annulment.

No kidding on this. My wife received an annulment from her first husband, but until she met me, she didn’t even know that they were possible, and so married her second outside the Church (I’m actually her third husband).

When she tried to start the annulment process (it was pretty much an open-and-shut case - he married her only for a green card), the diocese she was living in at the time said that she needed to apply for the annulment from the diocese in Mexico where she was married. The diocese in Mexico said she needed to apply in the US, because that’s where she was living. It went back and forth like this for several months before they settled it.

She ended up getting applications from both dioceses along the way. I can’t remember the specifics, but there were huge differences in what the individual dioceses required for their tribunals. The application in Mexico was much longer, and asked for twice the number of witnesses. As such, I think one of the things that needs to be fixed is making the tribunal requirements universal.

 

[Tomdstone]

But this is not a US problem. It is a world problem. Yet in the US we have all the annulments. Weird. Beach weddings are not US specific.

Only Americans are poorly catechized.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Only Americans are poorly catechized.

Oh, yeah, right… I forgot.

 

[pianistclare]

Oh, yeah, right… I forgot.

Funny.
Happy New Year Hoosier!

 

[MJJean]

ahhh ok. That makes more sense. Though I think it is a cop out rather than looking at the real issue. Even if you cut the annulment in HALF by the fact that 100 percent of US annulments have a non Catholic participant, then we still by far take up more of our fair share. Why is that?

I do think part of it is cultural. With divorce being common and contraception being even more common, and the growing number of people who find non-monogamy acceptable within a marriage, it isn’t any wonder that most of our society thinks marriage can be dissolved by divorce and that kids and fidelity are optional.

We also need to take into account that multiple marriages aren’t uncommon, either. It’s not always 1 catholic marrying 1 Protestant and those 2 people account for 1 annulment. It’s sometimes catholic A, who was divorced, wants to marry Protestant A, who has been married and divorced 2x. Those 2 people account for 3 annulments.

 

[Tomdstone]

I do think part of it is cultural. With divorce being common and contraception being even more common, and the growing number of people who find non-monogamy acceptable within a marriage, it isn’t any wonder that most of our society thinks marriage can be dissolved by divorce and that kids and fidelity are optional.

We also need to take into account that multiple marriages aren’t uncommon, either. It’s not always 1 catholic marrying 1 Protestant and those 2 people account for 1 annulment. It’s sometimes catholic A, who was divorced, wants to marry Protestant A, who has been married and divorced 2x. Those 2 people account for 3 annulments.

Why is American culture so much different from Canadian culture ?

 

[EasterJoy]

Of course you are right.
If the Roman Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ, then how come after Vatican II, the catechesis has become tumultuous, confused, or nonexistent in the Catholic Church, but not so in all the other Churches which have not experienced such a drastic increase in marriage breakups as the American Catholic Church?

A lot of things changed inside and outside the Western Church after WWI and WWII, and it can’t all be blamed on Vatican II.

For instance, who is complaining that Catholics and Protestants actually get along now? That is great, but there are so many interfaith marriages that never used to even happen. There are many evils, temptations, and blows to the family and the formation of the individual that would have come with or without Vatican II.

There is also a very different understanding of the limitations of the will. There was a time when people believed that chronic drunkenness was due to a weakness of the will. The physical realities of alcoholism were not appreciated. There is a great deal more understanding about mental illness. Well, if people realize that some marriages fail due to a defect that existed in a person’s mental make-up at the time of marriage rather than a mere refusal of will, that puts an entirely different light on judging the validity of marriage. Marriage enjoys the presumption of validity when there is a doubt, but when more is understood it stands to reason that there will be fewer reasonable doubts about capacity than when less was known.

What has lagged is the capacity to recognize a lack in capacity in advance definitively enough that it is reasonable to prevent a doomed marriage. We mostly see these things in retrospect or as high risks, but we are nowhere near where the Church can say in advance, “It is impossible that this marriage is going to be valid, so it cannot be permitted.” The freedom to marry enjoys the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Xantippe]

Why is American culture so much different from Canadian culture ?

Somebody should write a book…

I was looking up the stats on Canada vs. US crime statistics (which gives a flavor of at least some of the differences between us) and it looks like the US has 2.5X the murder rate, 16X the reported rapes (???), 3X as much violent crime, etc.

nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime

So, all in all, I would not expect Canadians to have a rate of annulments identical to the US.

We’re really not that similar.

 

[Xantippe]

A lot of things changed inside and outside the Western Church after WWI and WWII, and it can’t all be blamed on Vatican II.

For instance, who is complaining that Catholics and Protestants actually get along now? That is great, but there are so many interfaith marriages that never used to even happen. There are many evils, temptations, and blows to the family and the formation of the individual that would have come with or without Vatican II.

There is also a very different understanding of the limitations of the will. There was a time when people believed that chronic drunkenness was due to a weakness of the will. The physical realities of alcoholism were not appreciated. There is a great deal more understanding about mental illness. Well, if people realize that some marriages fail due to a defect that existed in a person’s mental make-up at the time of marriage rather than a mere refusal of will, that puts an entirely different light on judging the validity of marriage. Marriage enjoys the presumption of validity when there is a doubt, but when more is understood it stands to reason that there will be fewer reasonable doubts about capacity than when less was known.

What has lagged is the capacity to recognize a lack in capacity in advance definitively enough that it is reasonable to prevent a doomed marriage. We mostly see these things in retrospect or as high risks, but we are nowhere near where the Church can say in advance, “It is impossible that this marriage is going to be valid, so it cannot be permitted.” The freedom to marry enjoys the benefit of the doubt.

Yes.

 

[Tomdstone]

A lot of things changed inside and outside the Western Church after WWI and WWII, and it can’t all be blamed on Vatican II…

Why do all these changes affect only the USA and no other country? Only the USA has the explosion in marriage annulments going from 10 per year in 1929 to 60,000 per year in some years.

 

[Xantippe]

Why do all these changes affect only the USA and no other country? Only the USA has the explosion in marriage annulments going from 10 per year in 1929 to 60,000 per year in some years.

Only 10 per year in 1929 is an obvious case of abuse or oversight–there is simply no way that there were only 10 invalid marriages in the US in 1929, even by the most stringent standard.

Likewise, very low numbers of annulments granted outside the US may also be an abuse or an oversight. From everything that has been said, it sounds like there may be a lot of people outside the US with good cases who are not getting their day “in court” on a reasonabe schedule. (10-15 years is not reasonable.)

 

[Tomdstone]

Only 10 per year in 1929 is an obvious case of abuse or oversight–there is simply no way that there were only 10 invalid marriages in the US in 1929, even by the most stringent standard.

Likewise, very low numbers of annulments granted outside the US may also be an abuse or an oversight. From everything that has been said, it sounds like there may be a lot of people outside the US with good cases who are not getting their day “in court” on a reasonabe schedule. (10-15 years is not reasonable.)

What is obvious to anonymous bloggers on the internet was not obvious to the infallible Holy Roman Catholic Church in 1929.

 

[Xantippe]

What is obvious to anonymous bloggers on the internet was not obvious to the infallible Holy Roman Catholic Church in 1929.

Validity and invalidity of marriages is not an exercise in infallibility.

Here are the parameters of papal infallibility, as defined by the first Vatican Council:

“When, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

So, here’s why tribunal decisions aren’t infallible:

1. It’s not the pope making the decision.
2. It’s not ex cathedra.
3. It doesn’t concern a doctrine.

 

[EasterJoy]

Why do all these changes affect only the USA and no other country? Only the USA has the explosion in marriage annulments going from 10 per year in 1929 to 60,000 per year in some years.

I can’t speak about everywhere, but in some places the bureaucracy is so slow that a finding of nullity can take a decade or more. If the marriage is invalid, why should it take so long to figure it out? The “cultural reasons” can be both just and unjust.

If there are ten times more kids with identified reading disabilities in the US, does that mean the other places have fewer disabilities? It can mean that fewer disabilities are identified. It can also be that the are more factors that stunt maturity. It depends.

The sad thing is that most places in the world have more family challenges, rather than fewer. Sometimes, because things used to be better, sometimes because people used to be more inclined to hide their dirty laundry. When it becomes shameful, expensive, or pointless to admit a problem, even people who need help or deserve help won’t look for it.

 

[pianistclare]

All great points thus far…
I will add, as a person who works with the RCIA team, many people don’t have a great advocate.
It’s important. Someone who will ensure that your paperwork is filled out correctly and in a timely fashion.
Someone should be overseeing it, going over it, giving it back to the petitioners if it’s not complete, or if the questions are not suitably answered.
I’ve seen the paperwork come back over and over because people just don’t want to tell al the details.
Just recently, a woman filed, and one of the questions was “were you and your previous husband intimate before you married?”
She felt it was none of the tribunal’s business.
It help her up for an extra year because she then sat on the papers, angry about it.
these people need lots of counseling. It’s not just fill out a form and there you go. It’s often a painful process, and often, VERY often, the other party is not interested in helping you get an annulment.
Anyone seeking an annulment should make sure that their advocate is kind, caring, pastoral, and intent on helping, not just mailing the papers off for you.

 

[MJJean]

What is obvious to anonymous bloggers on the internet was not obvious to the infallible Holy Roman Catholic Church in 1929.

It’s not 1929. Our society is very different from what it was in 1929. We have a greater understanding of mental illness and how it relates to consent. We also have a lesser understanding of what marriage is as defined by the Church. And we have a more mixed marriages and larger numbers of converts. Not to mention that the rules changed and one no longer has to travel to their parish of origin or the one in which they married to apply for annulment. We have much better infrastructure which makes sending and receiving documents and information easier and faster. What took months to get, if it was at all possible to obtain, now takes minutes. It’s not surprising at all that more annulments are granted.